Abortion: The Issue of 'Women and Their Bodies' or 'Law and Society'?

Abortion is a decision made by law, religion, family, society, men, or women? Is opposition to abortion a way to exert more control over women's bodies? Do supporters of abortion oppose the institution of family? This week in Taboo, we discuss 'abortion.' Nasrin Afzali, a women's rights activist, and Zhila Mohaddes Shari'atpanahi, a researcher on gender equality in the Quran, are this week's guests. Ms. Shari'atpanahi, we start with you and the question of where and when abortion is fundamentally possible or impossible? Zhila Mohaddes Shari'atpanahi: I categorize pregnancy into three stages; before the formation of the fetal nervous system, after the formation of the fetal nervous system, and the third trimester when the fetus can survive outside the mother's body. Therefore, in the first stage, which lasts until about 10 weeks, I consider abortion to be the mother's right without any interrogation or questioning. However, after the formation of the nervous system, from 10 to 20 weeks, I condition it on whether the mother's life is in danger or the fetus has incurable diseases. But after five months, since the fetus can survive outside the mother's body, I consider this to be the fetus's right. Ms. Afzali, you heard Ms. Shari'atpanahi's viewpoint; she has a classification in which there are specific periods where abortion may be opposed and others where it may be supported. What is your opinion on this classification and your general view on the issue of abortion? Nasrin Afzali: Throughout human history, there has been no law regarding abortion. The first laws prohibiting abortion were established in various countries only in this recent century, after which women's rights activists began to discuss and oppose why this personal issue should fall under the law. We can have two reasons for prohibiting abortion: one based on individuals' religious and personal beliefs, and the other based on societal interests for better functioning. In the first case, related to individual beliefs, for example, the belief in the existence of a soul or an afterlife, even if it is the belief of the majority of society, it cannot become law. In the second case, those who argue that it is in the interest of society to have this law should realize that what has been proven over the years is that the prohibition of abortion... Ms. Afzali, I apologize, we will address your questions in the continuation of the program, but the cultural stigma and social pressure have certainly been imposed on the issue of abortion. Perhaps for this reason, I will return to Ms. Shari'atpanahi. Is this a kind of inclination towards controlling women's bodies and existence, or do some people even raise the issue of preserving the institution of family...? Shari'atpanahi: In my opinion, a conflict arises here, and we must resolve it in such a way that both goals are met. For example, if a woman is raped, we must fully recognize the right of the victimized woman to have this right at all stages. But if a woman enters into a relationship with a man out of love, she must also accept the potential consequences of her love. If a fetus is formed in a romantic relationship, it is the joint responsibility of the mother and father to decide before the formation of the nervous system, which is at 10 weeks, and the social system must also participate, providing medical facilities for this couple. Ms. Afzali, is this a fair division? Is the responsibility that falls on the woman equal to that of the other parties involved? Afzali: Certainly, the first and most significant impact of a pregnancy is on the woman, affecting her physical and mental health and her social and economic activity. It is a decision that affects her entire life. Until social and civil mechanisms, as well as governmental mechanisms, are fully present and a system is prepared that allows a woman to take full responsibility for a child, and on the other hand, society can fully support them in raising that child—if they do not have the capacity or desire—until all these mechanisms are in place, the government and society do not have the right to decide or express an opinion on whether a couple, especially a woman, wants to have a child or not. Ms. Afzali, even if such a mechanism is established, it is possible that a group may still ask whether the issue is specifically related to women's bodies—perhaps men's bodies are not as directly related to the body of a woman who carries this new being and must bring it into the world—can a woman be forced to become a mother for any reason? Afzali: Certainly not. A woman may even be ready to become a mother but then face an issue that prevents her from becoming pregnant. Or we know that all methods of contraception have failures, and even the best methods are not 100% effective, so we can never think that all pregnancies were preventable. Therefore, the reasons that governments allow abortion are all time-consuming processes that delay this stage and create more stress and problems for that woman, her family, and those around her. Shari'atpanahi: We say a mother must take care of her own body. Just as her body belongs to her, she must decide until 10 weeks—currently, with pregnancy detection methods, a mother can realize she is pregnant much earlier than this—after 10 weeks, we do not say that if the mother's life is in danger or the fetus has an incurable disease, she cannot have an abortion. We must allow, until about 20 weeks, a mother who is in serious danger or whose mental health is determined by a doctor, or a fetus that has incurable diseases, to have a safe medical abortion. I am not so conservative as to say that in every situation a mother must become a mother. No! But I say it must be regulated. Well, Ms. Shari'atpanahi, can people ask you about the possibility that a mother, after giving birth, may regret being a mother? What would you say to that? Shari'atpanahi: I would say that the later you decide to have an abortion, the more costs you impose on the healthcare system. Suppose we consider a scenario where someone decides late. Someone at eight months does not want to bring this child into the world. What rights do you give her? Shari'atpanahi: I say she can, under medical supervision, have a premature birth, and then this child can be placed under the supervision of social workers and the biological mother, to families who are burning with the desire to have children. Perhaps when the child grows up, the mother may want to participate in the process of motherhood. One cannot say that a mother can make any decision without considering the right to life of a fetus that is more than 10 or 20 weeks old. Here, the fetus also has rights, and the father of the fetus also has rights, of course, rights that come with responsibilities. This means the father must bear all the expenses of this child if it is born, and if the mother, whether physically or mentally, does not want the child, the father must fully take on fatherhood or the welfare system must ensure that the fetus's right to life is not lost. Ms. Afzali, motherhood is a significant and unique responsibility that someone may not be ready to take on for any reason—now after 10 weeks, she may not be ready for this responsibility—what will you say as someone who defends the right to abortion in these complex and difficult situations? Afzali: This decision must be entirely left to the woman. If there are stages where abortion is possible, it should be done, and if it has passed this stage, it only differs medically and is transferred to [the system]. In some places where this issue is accepted, this right is given to the woman that she never has to take any responsibility for that child. Shari'atpanahi: Ms. Haydari, I have a question for you. If after the child is born, the mother regrets being a mother, does she have the right to kill her child? This is a very good question. Shari'atpanahi: From a certain point onward, although the fetus is not born, it is like a human being. Whether it is a child that has been born or a child that has not yet been born but can continue to live outside the mother's body, it should be able to continue its life in the best possible way. One thing that must be clarified is that what is discussed in this program does not necessarily represent my personal views, but regarding your question about what happens if a mother regrets after birth, I think it is a significant topic; fundamentally, the issue is motherhood. We see the issue of motherhood very materially, talking about expenses and responsibilities, but what about the mental and emotional aspects of whether a woman is now ready to bring a child into the world—meaning the experience of bringing another human being into this world—shouldn't this experience be a choice for a woman, and can it not cause serious psychological, emotional, and social harm to this woman? Afzali: Every aspect of a woman's life is affected by this issue, and of course, this has not always been the case throughout history. Previously, children were born into a large family, tribe, or clan, and everyone was responsible for the children. Now, most lives have become individualistic, and everyone must fend for themselves. Now, to a large extent, each individual's responsibilities fall on themselves, so we must also leave the decisions they make to themselves. Let me tell an interesting story about how much the taboo surrounding this issue relates to recent years. I had a grandmother who lived until she was over a hundred years old and was a very religious person. However, she wanted to abort my father, and my father always joked with her that since his three children were girls, and my grandmother was very upset about this, she feared that the next child would also be a girl, and for this reason, she would casually say that she would hit her stomach to abort the child, despite being a religious person, or how midwives at that time taught women methods of abortion, and it was a common issue, but now when all these matters occur within the medical system, society and the government think they can intervene, and therefore they do intervene. This brings me to the next question I want to ask Ms. Shari'atpanahi. Ms. Afzali says that in the past, perhaps this taboo aspect was less present. I want to reach the question that as society feels the institution of family is weakening, it has found this way to control it through women's bodies. In many cases, abortions, contrary to public belief, result from relationships that are described in Iran as 'illegitimate'; in most cases, abortions result from tense relationships in troubled families. Shari'atpanahi: Yes, you see, society reaches a balance, and when women manage to restore part of their rights and the healthcare system comes to their aid, certainly every service you receive from society comes with a responsibility for that service, and if you eliminate that responsibility, nothing will hold together. The institution of family is very important, but I want to say that this mother should not abuse her ownership of her body, and that society should not abuse the rights it has for that healthcare system, but to what extent? Until eight months? Until seven months? Some say that in the 21st century, sex can become computerized, and what need is there for family? This emotional deficit, all this war, all this inadequacy we have in terms of emotions is due to the ideal family institution, where love prevails, has disappeared. Afzali: Overall, this discussion about women's bodies is central to this discussion. Essentially, there are groups that believe that controlling women's bodies is one way to control any issue in relation to society. Is the issue of abortion taboo because of 'being a woman'? Because there is a famous saying that if men could get pregnant, abortion would become a sacred religious rite. How significant do you find this issue in this context? Afzali: It's a very good question and has a good point. It is precisely related to women and women's bodies. You see, if the issue of children and child-rearing were genuinely at stake, why has there been such a long-standing agreement on child custody? The fact that a woman wants to control her pregnancy has various consequences, and it is not just about abortion. In the early days when the issue of birth control was raised, there was a lot of opposition to it, meaning if this were the case, no woman would ever become pregnant again, and in the abortion debate, the issue is that if it is allowed, all women will have abortions from tomorrow. Awareness must be raised that abortion and the decision to have an abortion are among the most challenging decisions for a woman; it has severe psychological and physical consequences, and when it reaches the surgical stage, we know it is one of the most difficult surgeries performed. It is not as some talk about that these girls and women do not pay attention and become pregnant and then have abortions—implying that preventing pregnancy is easier than having an abortion. Shari'atpanahi: If one day men can also become mothers, I would not change my opinion, meaning that the one who has the ability to continue the lineage within them also has the right, duty, and responsibility. You see, the right without responsibility is something that is now common in our world; everyone wants to do whatever they want without anyone questioning them. For example, in China, I knew a woman who would take a contraceptive pill every time she had sexual intercourse so that any potential conception would be eliminated. Afzali: Can I pose a question, Ms. Shari'atpanahi? You speak of the rights and responsibilities of women. Now, this body in which the child is formed is the woman's body; is there not a significant issue here?