Champions of Peace, Tolerance, and Non-Violence at Ramin Jahanbegloo's Dinner Party

Host: Ramin Jahanbegloo Guests: Zoroaster, Buddha, Socrates, Gandhi, and Martin Luther King Music: Discovery of India by Ravi Shankar Dinner Menu: Vegetable Biryani This week's host is Ramin Jahanbegloo. Mr. Jahanbegloo is one of the most renowned researchers in philosophy and theorists of non-violence. He is a well-known figure in Western academic circles. He studied philosophy at Sorbonne and Harvard and has published about thirty volumes. Mr. Jahanbegloo received the United Nations Peace Prize in 2009 for his efforts to promote peace and tolerance. About ten years ago, he was arrested on charges of instigating what Iranian authorities called a Velvet Revolution and was forced to make televised confessions. Mr. Jahanbegloo says solitary confinement made him lose faith in faith, but instead, he gained faith in conscience. He is currently the director of the Mahatma Gandhi Peace Studies Center at Jindal University in Delhi. Mr. Jahanbegloo, welcome to the program. Can you first tell me who you invited to dinner? I greet you and the dear listeners of the program. My guests are Zoroaster, Buddha, Socrates, Gandhi, and Martin Luther King. Very interesting. You were expected to choose such guests given our understanding of your thoughts. I will definitely ask you later why you chose these figures, as our audience wants to know why Mr. Jahanbegloo is interested in Zoroaster and the others. But before that, I wanted to ask what music you have chosen for the dinner? The music I chose is a piece by Ravi Shankar written for Gandhi, which was also played in the film Gandhi and won many awards. Now, why do I like this piece? First, because of Ravi Shankar's sitar, which I admire, and he may be one of the greatest musicians of the twentieth century. This piece is special compared to other works by Ravi Shankar? The piece is called Discovery of India, and it is when Gandhi returns from South Africa and is discovering India. He is traveling by train. This piece was created by Ravi Shankar for that scene where we also see Gandhi with his wife Kasturba discovering India to start his movement. Now, we want to return to your guests. First, Zoroaster. What importance does he hold for you? I do not have a religious view of Zoroaster. My perspective is more philosophical. Zoroaster, for me, is more of a philosopher than a prophet. He is a philosopher whom we Iranians have paid much less attention to in terms of his non-violence aspect. For me, Zoroaster is a non-violent philosopher. He talks about truthfulness, he talks about justice. One of the most beautiful parts that Zoroaster has in the Gathas is Yasna 29, where a cow comes to complain to Ahura Mazda about humans, which is essentially the name of this cow's soul, which is the soul of humanity, that is somewhat upset about all the evils and violence that humans do. This is a beautiful piece for me. A prophet for many, but for people like me, a philosopher or thinker who speaks about these issues three thousand years ago. And how contemporary his message of non-violence is. I invited him as a guest because I thought how much he could discuss these topics alongside Buddha, Socrates, Gandhi, and Martin Luther King. But we can find things in the Avesta that may also indicate violence, right? According to scholars specializing in the Sasanian period who have done much more precise work, Zoroastrianism, when it became a state religion during the Sasanian period, brought violence with it. That is, it became the religion of the Magi. Zoroaster's message is not necessarily the message of the Magi. His message is not organized. It is a philosophical message in my view. I believe there is a significant gap between what is written in the Gathas and what we want and what has been interpreted later and turned into a state religion. So you distinguish between Zoroaster the person and the religion called Zoroastrianism that became the official religion during the Sasanian period. Let's return to your second guest, Buddha. Buddha: Founder of Buddhism Reason for Invitation: He is a kind of messenger of tolerance before Zoroaster. A messenger of peace. A messenger of non-violence. Yes. Buddha, after Zoroaster, even before Zoroaster, is a kind of messenger of tolerance. A messenger of peace. A messenger of non-violence. One of the main principles of Buddhism is non-violence, what they call Ahimsa. Buddha is also a philosopher. He is someone who comes and shows us that humans suffer, humans die, humans grow old. All the points that lead Buddha to sit under that tree and reach that enlightenment and awakening that is called Buddha. Buddhism is a spiritual culture that has a permanent presence among Asians, and I think we Iranians have also been influenced by Buddhism at least in our mystical aspect. In my opinion, Buddha is a contemporary person. Again, I do not see him as a prophet. I see him as a philosopher. A philosopher whose influence you can even see on a German philosopher like Schopenhauer. He is contemporary. When we read Buddha, we say, 'Ah, this is our issue.' Now, we are not necessarily supposed to say, as the Dalai Lama once told me... anyone can become a Buddha, but not everyone can become a Buddha. Why? Because one must make a legendary effort to become a Buddha. But the message that Buddha conveys is that life is either all greed and conflict and war or that life is about accepting many things and acknowledging that humans must make peace with other beings and we can reach this tolerance together. Buddhism is one of the godless religions, right? I mean, it does not claim to be appointed by God like the Abrahamic prophets. That is correct. Again, in Buddhism, you do not have the divine principle that exists in Semitic religions. There is no such divinity. And from this perspective, I say it is philosophical. Because Buddhism essentially places you in relation to the essence of life, which is an essence that we all feel daily in the twenty-first century: 'How much pain do I have? The people I love all perish, die, I myself die, I see disease around me, I see war.' Buddhism addresses all these points that humanity suffers from and leads to a wisdom. That wisdom is very interesting to me. Your third guest is Socrates. Wisdom has been very important for him. Why did you choose Socrates? Socrates (470 to 399 BC): Greek philosopher and thinker Fame: Introducing ethics into philosophy and founding the dialectical method Reason for Invitation: Socrates not only represents wisdom, but he also represents the questioning that we have very little of in today's world. Socrates questions everything. This questioning even leads to his death. Socrates is one of my heroes. Why? Because Socrates not only represents wisdom. Socrates represents the questioning that we have very little of in today's world. Socrates questions everything. This questioning even leads to his death. Because they say you came and misled the youth, and you must drink the hemlock. This Socratic questioning is accompanied by philosophical thought. It is accompanied by any kind of thought. In general, it is accompanied by thought. And our world today is losing this questioning more and more, and you look around and see that we no longer do Socratic questioning in the way we should ask why we are here and what we should do, how we should think about justice. Everything seems either very relative or very obvious, and we no longer expect future generations to know how to ask these questions. But Socrates (let's call him Socrates the Wise) is the essence of this questioning... I mean, there are no certainties for him? No. Certainty does not exist in that way; why does it not exist? Because he believes that life is a test. And his famous saying is: 'The unexamined life is not worth living.' Because only a life with examination leads you to wisdom. A life with examination is one in which there is questioning. When you cannot question yourself about why I live? Why am I with other humans? Why should justice exist? Why should peace exist? Naturally, we will not have a proper collective life. This close relationship between ethics in the sense that Socrates speaks of is important to me. Can you remind the listeners what the hemlock cup is that Socrates drank? When Socrates is tried, and Plato, Socrates' student, writes about him in very famous dialogues, Socrates' students come to him and say, 'Come, escape from prison.' He says, 'I am an Athenian citizen, and I will not escape, and I care about the laws. I want to remain an Athenian citizen.' After the trial, they say, 'You choose your own death, and drink this poison.' Socrates does this, and we have several famous paintings that show Socrates' students gathered around him as he drinks that cup. This has been engraved in the history of thought for twenty-five or twenty-six centuries. This cup of hemlock symbolizes the destruction of philosophy by politics. It is the killing of philosophers. You have twenty-five centuries of philosophical killing by various powers in different eras and times. And Socrates represents this. The cup of hemlock represents this. Do you still admire Socrates' act of drinking the cup and not listening to his students' suggestion to go and continue his work? Don't you think it would have been better for him to leave and continue his work? I admire it because in Socrates, we have two characters at once. One character who is disobedient and comes and wants to disobey unjust laws, and on the other hand, he wants to remain a full citizen because he knows that citizenship is important. You cannot philosophize in the realm of imagination. You cannot do political work in the realm of imagination. Therefore, he wants to remain a citizen even until the last minute and drinks the cup of hemlock for this reason. Now we turn to your fourth guest, Mahatma Gandhi. Mahatma Gandhi (1869-1948): Political leader of India's independence Fame: Emphasis on non-violence Important Work: My Experiments with Truth Reason for Invitation: The importance of Gandhi lies in his intellectual autonomy and how we can govern ourselves. This Socratic questioning aspect is also important in him. Mahatma Gandhi is a figure familiar to everyone. Many see him as a prophet of non-violence. But Gandhi is much more than that. First of all, Gandhi is a Socrates in his own right and greatly admired Socrates. When we see Gandhi's writings in South Africa, where he wrote at the beginning of his life, he refers to Socrates as a Satyagrahi, meaning someone who fights non-violently. It is interesting to me that this closeness exists among my guests. In fact, he read Zoroaster's Avesta every day. These connections exist. Buddha, who was also his compatriot. Therefore, they all have a kind of familiarity with each other. Among these, Gandhi is perhaps the most famous to us because... he is closer to us... Yes. As a leader of non-violence who expelled the British or achieved India's independence. Is this interesting to you? For me, this aspect is not that interesting. The main triangle that defines the foundational principles of Gandhi's thought consists of three parts. One is Swaraj, meaning self-rule or self-governance, one is Satyagraha, which is the issue of non-violence, and the third is Sarvodaya, which means everyone should be helped, and everyone should be able to reach a degree of economic and social happiness. Happiness for all. This triangle is important, and when we look at Gandhi from a distance, we see that he is someone who fought against the British and fought half-naked and then said to wear white clothes instead of English clothes and succeeded this way. But Gandhi is fundamentally someone whose importance today lies in this intellectual autonomy and how we can govern ourselves. This Socratic questioning aspect is also important in him. Now we turn to your last guest, Martin Luther King.