Creation or Evolution; The Struggle Between Science and Religion Over the Origin of Humanity

In this episode of Taboo, we host two perspectives in response to a question; a question that humanity has always asked itself. An important question that determines the meaning of life. Why and how were humans and the universe created? Was the creation of humanity a gradual process, and did the universe begin from the Big Bang as science suggests, or did the Creator - God create the universe and humanity based on "Be, and it is" in just six days, as the sacred texts of Abrahamic religions, including the Quran, state? Dr. Taghi Kimiayi Asadi, a specialist in electric diagnostic medicine and author of the book "Creation and Evolution of the Brain and Mind," and Sajad Nikayin, a religious scholar, discuss this topic in the program. Before we see how, let’s see why? I ask you, Mr. Nikayin, from a religious perspective, why have humans and the universe come into existence? Is there a path for creation? Sajad Nikayin: You see, the advantage of religions is that they have answers to these three important questions: Where did I come from? What was my purpose in coming? Where am I going? I cannot tell you that there is a single answer to this question in Islamic discourse or Islamic philosophy. Muslim philosophers, who believe that creation is fundamentally based on a cause-and-effect relationship, have said that we have a cause that they interpret as God, and the creatures are the products of that cause or, as philosophers call it, the necessary being. However, what another group of theologians say, which is rooted in our mysticism, if I want to bring it closer to mind, is that we do not have a why for why God created. Why not? Because all creations that humanity knows are not necessarily creations with a why. The creation of a poet does not necessarily have a why. You cannot say why a poet composed a poem. This exact expression is also used by Amir al-Mu'minin Ali (peace be upon him) in Nahj al-Balagha that we should not compare God with ourselves. We humans perform actions because these actions are caused by a need in us. These do not apply to God. Therefore, God is an agent without a reason. This means that it cannot be asked why He created. He created. The utmost answer I can give you is that He created because He is the Creator. That's it. A poet composes a poem, but this poem is also expected by others from him, and he expects to perfect this poem. Well, he processes this poem. He polishes it. Does this contradict the fact that he is asked to be brought to perfection or not? Does he want to structure his biology so that he can progress physically, psychologically, and spiritually towards perfection? Well, this is the essence of this being that has been created. He has been created; he also wants to be tasked and is guided towards perfection. Therefore, He has sent prophets and provided the means for guidance and perfection and other prerequisites. Well, Mr. Dr. Kimiayi Asadi, you heard Mr. Nikayin's remarks from a theistic and religious perspective. He sees a God who is the Creator and has no why regarding the creation of the universe and humanity. What is your view regarding this why? Taghi Kimiayi Asadi: Of course, creation can be viewed from two fronts. One is creation by God, which cannot be proven, and the other is natural creation, which has been completely proven. From a religious perspective, if we look at it as they said, believers think that God is perfect, has maximum perfection, and has no purpose for our creation. They still have to ask, then why did He create us? I mean, really, the reason He created us to attain perfection [what is it] and why did He make us responsible and later wants to take us to that world and judge us? The point is that we are a natural being, and nature has no consciousness, and everything in it is cause and effect, starting from the moment of the Big Bang. Now, this is the creation of the universe, and in the biological creation of the Earth, spatially, it has been arranged in such a way that conditions arose, and the temperature, the existence of water, and minerals were such that life began about 3.8 billion years ago and gradually evolved, and it has no consistency with the creation mentioned in religious texts. It has been completely a physical occurrence. Our creation has also been a physical occurrence, and through evolution and transformation, we have reached the state where we can now talk to each other, and if this evolution and transformation had not progressed this way and had progressed differently, we would not be here, and we would not be saying these words. If we were not here, nothing would happen. If the entire universe did not exist, nothing would happen. [Here we have] a very strong difference regarding how creation occurred, to say whether God created the world in six days as stated in the Torah and the Bible, the Book of Genesis, or whatever you want to call it, or whether we return to natural creation over 13.8 billion years from the Big Bang to the moment we are now speaking. You, Dr., speak of the occurrence of the universe based on the Big Bang theory (the Persian equivalent is called Mehbang, of course) and the cosmic explosion that caused the material universe to come into existence randomly and suddenly, and you say this contradicts what religions have said. Could you please elaborate on this? Kimiayi Asadi: James Ussher - I don’t know if you’ve heard of him - was the Archbishop of Ireland who spent about 50 years of his life determining the date of creation and concluded that at 6 PM on October 22, 4004 BC, that six days began when God decided to start creation. He completed creation in six days. First, He created the Earth. It was dark. Then He created the sun and light. Then He created paradise and then created Adam and created Eve from Adam's rib, and created Adam from clay. This is the creation story mentioned in religious texts that occurred in six days, and everything was done simultaneously, and all creatures were created six thousand years ago, and for this reason, evolution has no meaning in religion. However, they have not been able to justify how these life forms that have existed for 3.8 billion years were created or how the history of galaxies, which is 13.8 billion years, was produced in six thousand years. This is a contradiction that is actually the main discussion between science and Abrahamic religions. Well, Mr. Nikayin, with what argument do the sacred texts and religions emphasize that creation occurred in six days? This can contradict both the Big Bang and the theory of evolution. I know that some Muslims, citing verses from the Quran, say that even the Big Bang is mentioned in the Quran. What is your opinion? Nikayin: Let me briefly respond to what Dr. Asadi said. First, I did not say it has no purpose. I said the question of having a purpose is a misplaced question, just as the question of why a poet composed a poem is a misplaced question. But regarding the assertion that everything started from the moment of the Big Bang, based on what today’s physics data says, we know what happened until 10 to the power of negative 43 seconds. Before that, we do not know what happened until the zero time that Dr. Asadi mentions. If we claim that believers cannot prove the existence of a creator, non-believers cannot confidently say that there is no creator either. I refer to one of the most important philosophers of analytical philosophy of our time in the 21st century, Mr. Thomas Nagel, who says that we cannot conceive of this matter having gone through this path and brought us here without a degree of consciousness. He uses the term consciousness. Believers say this is God. This intelligent creator is God. When you put all this together, you ultimately have to explain how all these minerals, temperatures, the formation of water, that dense mass, how do you explain all these with which probability function? If you consider a one percent probability of each of these occurring, all these favorable conditions must come together without any historical disruption for you to reach a point where, as Dr. Asadi said, you and I are sitting across from each other and talking. All these favorable conditions must be in place for the first single-celled organism to form. Now, after that first single-celled organism, we must reach the point where it evolves and various species branch out from it. And then, Mr. Ussher, the bishop in Ireland that Dr. mentioned, said that time has been taken; yes, many have taken this day as a day, but at least from the Islamic perspective, in the Quran that says six days, really, day does not mean day. Each of those days was a thousand years. That is, day in Quranic literature and in Arabic literature does not necessarily mean a day. It means a stage. But regarding your claim that the Big Bang or Mehbang is mentioned in the Quran, in fact, there are terms. I do not want to say the Quran is a scientific book or that it was meant to explain these issues, but in the Quran, you encounter terms that completely communicate with you. God says to the Prophet, say, "Indeed, I have directed my face to the One who created the heavens." The one who created means to split. He split the heavens and the earth and existence. This verse is the seventy-ninth verse of Surah Al-An'am. Or the thirtieth verse of Surah Al-Anbya. Do those who have disbelieved not see that existence was one piece, and we split it? Dr. Kimiayi, Mr. Nikayin says that if believers cannot prove the existence of a creator, non-believers cannot prove its non-existence either, and he emphasizes that there is consciousness in existence. Kimiayi Asadi: First of all, proving negation does not exist in science, meaning you can never prove that something that does not exist and is not measurable does not exist; therefore, proving or disproving the existence of God is not the work of science. This is the work of believers who have been trying to prove it for thousands of years and are still struggling. The second point he made is that the conditions for life on Earth suddenly arose. No, it was not like that. A supernova exploded about five billion years ago in the Milky Way galaxy, leading to the formation of the sun and subsequently the Earth. Five billion years ago, the Earth and all the planets of the solar system were created simultaneously. It took about one to two billion years for the Earth to cool down gradually. Water collected on it, and some of it likely came from celestial rocks, and some from the compounds that existed on Earth, which gradually cooled down, and this water took shape. Gradually, RNA viruses formed, and then DNA viruses, and then nucleus-less bacteria. Subsequently, nucleus-containing bacteria or cyanobacteria formed, which entered cells and created plants, and then mitochondria, which were bacteria, formed themselves and entered animal cells, giving them the ability to consume oxygen. These gathered together and produced creatures similar to sea sponges, which were made only of single cells but gathered together, and gradually organs and members appeared, and no instantaneous creation or creation in a thousand years or whatever is mentioned in religious texts occurred, and creation has been gradual and precisely based on Darwinian evolution, and it continues, and living organisms and new organisms are still being created, and old organisms die, and this completely contradicts religious interpretations. And regarding consciousness, all living beings have consciousness to solve their daily problems, which include feeding and reproduction, and we, who emerged about one hundred thousand years ago, have developed complex intelligence due to the evolution of the brain, especially our frontal cortex. And this story of "day." First of all, day is a Hebrew word and only means day, and this is exactly contrary to what happens in nature. Dr. Kimiayi, very briefly about Mr. Nikayin's interpretation that, for example, the Big Bang is mentioned in the Quran and in the language of the Quran, do you think those verses truly refer to the Big Bang? Kimiayi Asadi: The Quran has been around for fourteen hundred years, and perhaps the Old Testament has been around for three thousand years, and its interpreters have been numerous. Whenever a new scientific idea emerges, believers start to extract ambiguous words from the Quran or the Torah and say that this refers to the Big Bang or this point is the same as Darwinian evolution. Why, before Darwin proposed this story of evolution and transformation, no one had come to extract from the Quran and the Torah and the Bible that this creation mentioned in one day actually began ten billion years ago or three billion years ago and gradually continues.