French Culture and Democracy Shaped by the Possibility of Joking About Religion

Dilar Gurchu, an independent journalist from Turkey and women's rights activist, has engaged in a conversation with Caroline Fourest, one of the veteran journalists of Charlie Hebdo, about the newspaper, religious fundamentalism, and secularism. Ms. Gurchu has provided this interview to Radio Farda. Caroline Fourest is a journalist, writer, director, screenwriter, and one of the founders of the secular, feminist, and anti-racist magazine "Pro Choix" (Right to Choose). She worked for six years at Charlie Hebdo, and her critical writings against the far-right and fundamentalism, as well as her support for the principles of secularism, women's rights, LGBTQ rights, and anti-racism, are well-known. Caroline Fourest has focused on the conflict between universality and cultural relativism in her past works. For the past 16 years, she has researched various forms of religious extremism and was a columnist for Le Monde for five years. Caroline Fourest is currently one of the editors of France Culture radio, which broadcasts programs with political, cultural, and scientific themes. Let’s start with a question about Charlie Hebdo; how do you define Charlie Hebdo? Charlie Hebdo is a satirical magazine, known for making people laugh about any topic, from power to domination or ideology. It is crucial to understand that Charlie Hebdo does not publish any cartoon without relating it to social and political conditions. The bigots and those who have a superficial understanding either do not want to or cannot grasp this point. Charlie Hebdo has likely published hundreds of cartoons about the Pope and the Catholic Church before topics related to Islam. The staunchest enemy of Charlie Hebdo is the National Front of France and Marine Le Pen. Many cartoons of Nicolas Sarkozy have also been published in Charlie Hebdo, as it is a leftist magazine. It advocates for different economic relations that are less capitalist. Charlie Hebdo is a supporter of Palestine, although this orientation is less known. Charb (Stéphane Charbonnier) and Tignous (Bernard Verlhac), victims of the attack on the magazine's office, were serious activists supporting Palestinians. It should also be noted that many cartoons of Israeli soldiers in Gaza have been published in Charlie Hebdo, as it is a magazine that seeks to uncover and show the realities. Mocking religion has a centuries-old history in France. The crime of "blasphemy" was abolished in France in the 19th century. How do you defend this culture that some may consider "blasphemy"? French culture, philosophy, and democracy are based on the possibility of joking and satire about religion. That is why no religious majority can dominate or suppress a religious minority through political power or the state. The state does not financially support any religion because it is secular. We in France want all religions to be equal, and the state should not favor or prioritize any religion. To reach such a position, we had to fight against the Catholic Church, which was one with the government during the Middle Ages and royal rule. We built a secular republic by fighting against this system. The first step in this struggle was to demystify the sacred status of the Catholic Church. It was a process that was insulting and violent. For example, the issue of sexual abuse of children in the church has often been depicted by portraying a priest as a child abuser. I believe that after the shooting incident, Charlie Hebdo was able to broaden its position and message. In your opinion, what does Charlie Hebdo represent in today’s France? The contradiction of this crime is that the jihadists killed the employees of this magazine to silence it. However, with this attack, they directed the entire world towards reading and subscribing to this magazine. Our generation grew up with the cartoonists who were killed; they made us laugh since we were children, laughing at reality, religion, politicians, and everything! Witnessing this sheer violence, this fanaticism, and this absolute cruelty against these dear, intelligent, and funny journalists of Charlie Hebdo has created a huge shock in France. Today, Charlie Hebdo is a symbol of thoughtful and progressive people who want to be free to criticize religion and defend a secular republic and democracy. Charlie Hebdo symbolizes those who fight against the far-right and conservatives who want to sow discord among people and create hatred against Muslims. This has been, is, and will be the symbol of Charlie Hebdo. This is the balance we want to maintain for many years to come. Your books, especially "Counter-Shot: A Comparative Study of Jewish, Christian, and Islamic Fundamentalism," "Brother Tariq: Tariq Ramadan the Double-Talker," and "Marine Le Pen: Without a Mask" have faced a lot of criticism. You are one of the enemies and a target of the far-right. How can you resist and continue to protest? I do not consider myself brave because there are much braver journalists and activists than I am. I see myself in the circle of support for journalists from Turkey, Tunisia, and Algeria who are under much more severe pressures. I only fight against the bigots, not against the government, which not only does not support them but is also against them. In contrast, my colleagues in other countries must fight both against the bigots and the governments, which not only do not support them but also support the fundamentalists and bigots. They do not have the opportunity to work professionally in a democratic environment. I know that for me as a journalist, working in a democratic society like secular democracy in France is a great privilege. I know that for me as a journalist, working in a democratic society like secular democracy in France is a great privilege. That’s why I think I work in comfortable conditions. Even in this secular democracy, I face a lot of insults and criticisms for my work. The National Front of France and Catholic fundamentalists have created an image of "Islamophobia" against me. Let’s talk about the French government’s stance after the attack on Charlie Hebdo. What is your opinion about the massive Republican march on January 11? Many leftist organizations criticized this march and the invitation of leaders from countries where democracy does not exist. On the other hand, there were concerns about the impact of this action on the Muslim minority in France. What do you think might happen? The January 11 march was very impactful. I have never seen Paris or France like this. The streets were filled with various people who all demonstrated their full support for freedom of expression. We did not see the officials. The only thing we saw was a massive crowd of people. But to be honest, the French officials were kind and supportive. François Hollande had supported Charlie Hebdo during the events of 2006. At that time, he was not in a position to become president. He is very humorous even when we criticized him in Charlie Hebdo and mocked him. Believe me, we published cartoons of Hollande that could have made him cry, yet he still provides full support. Of course, he has other flaws, but he is a real democrat and someone who respects humor. That’s why I think that after the massacre at the Charlie Hebdo office, the officials have made every effort. We hope that the people of France will respond appropriately and correctly to this fanatical attack by not supporting the National Front of France. Because the far-right's exploitation of this incident can create significant dangers for Muslims in France. Marine Le Pen was the only politician who did not attend the January 11 march. And to be honest, the employees of Charlie Hebdo did not want her there either. But she insisted on being at the forefront with her flag. None of the politicians came with flags. I hope her actions show the conservatives of France that the National Front of France is not the right answer to the "jihadists" and fanaticism. The only correct and logical response to fanaticism and violence is secularism.