Host: Abolhassan Banisadr Guests: Muhammad Ibn Abdullah, Ali Ibn Abi Talib, Hussein Ibn Ali, Dr. Mossadegh, and Hussein Nobav. Music: Sepideh (Iran, the Home of Hope) sung by Shajarian Dinner Menu: Bread and yogurt This week's host is Abolhassan Banisadr. Mr. Banisadr was elected as the first President of Iran after the Islamic Revolution of 1979 but was dismissed by parliament after about two years due to escalating conflicts with the clerical faction of the government. He considers his dismissal a coup. Mr. Banisadr then left Iran for France with the help of the Mojahedin Organization and alongside Massoud Rajavi, the leader of this group, and they, along with several other organizations, formed the National Council of Resistance. However, Mr. Banisadr later had disagreements with the Mojahedin and left the council but continued his activities against the Iranian government. Before the revolution, Mr. Banisadr was close to the National Front of Iran led by Dr. Mossadegh and studied economics in France. Upon Ayatollah Khomeini's arrival in France, he joined his close circle and returned to Iran with him. He has published many books, including 'The Economics of Monotheism' and 'Betrayal of Hope.' Mr. Banisadr lives in Versailles, a suburb of Paris, and I visited him at his home.
About Abolhassan Banisadr: After the Islamic Revolution of 1979, he was elected as the first President of Iran but was dismissed by parliament after about two years due to rising conflicts with the clerical faction of the government. He considers his dismissal a coup and continues his activities against the Iranian government from Paris.
Mr. Banisadr, welcome to the program. I would like to ask you first to tell us which five personalities you would like to invite to your dinner party? I would like to invite the Prophet Muhammad Ibn Abdullah, Ali Ibn Abi Talib, Hussein Ibn Ali, Dr. Mossadegh, and Hussein Nobav. Thank you very much. You will definitely explain later to our audience why you would like these five personalities to come to your party and what interest you have in them. But before that, I wanted to see if you could play some music that the Prophet Muhammad and Imam Ali and Imam Hussein would like, and I hope they wouldn't have any problem with the music? No. They... (they have no problem). Some of those who eat their bread have problems. They have created problems. This means that music has no issue from the perspective of the Prophet and Islam.
Abolhassan Banisadr / Sepideh Selected music: The song Sepideh, known as 'Iran, the Home of Hope,' sung by: Mohammad Reza Shajarian, lyricist: Hooshang Ebtehaj (Sayeh), composer: Mohammad Reza Lotfi. I want 'Iran, the Home of Hope,' which has been sung by three famous Iranian singers, to be played with Shajarian's voice. In terms of expressing sympathy with him and reminding that hope is the essence of life and hope and the ability to overcome illness. Mr. Shajarian, due to the illness he has, do you want to remind us? What memory does this song create for you? Why do you like this song? Because since 1963, I came to Europe. Except for the two years I returned to Iran with the revolution, I lived the rest in exile. But throughout this time, I lived in my homeland. This song reminds me of my homeland and the hope that Iran will regain independence and freedom. I remember once when I interviewed Master Shajarian about this song, he said that he sang it for the greatness of Iran and the peak days of the revolution, and now when I see it being played while Ayatollah Khomeini is (coming down the stairs of the airplane) entering Iran, that was not my intention at all. This song was for the revolutionary awakening that had been created in the people.
Mr. Banisadr, now we return to the guests you selected. The first guest you mentioned is the Prophet of Islam. Why?
Guests of Abolhassan Banisadr / Muhammad Muhammad Ibn Abdullah (53 years before Hijra to 10 AH): Founder of Islam Reason for invitation: Because in the wasteland of Arabia at that time, a human like him could emerge and his Quran encompasses human rights and council democracy part by part and even the language of the culture of this democracy and put it into practice. Because in the wasteland of Arabia at that time, a human like him could emerge and his Quran encompasses human rights and council democracy part by part and even the language of the culture of this democracy and put it into practice, and now we are in the 21st century. In Muslim lands, there is despotism everywhere. What oppression! The reason is this. Muslims should wake up. Day and night, Islamophobia and anti-Islam sentiment arise because of the violence that is acted in the name of this religion. I found 22 rules of violence reduction in the Quran. Instead of those rules, all methods of violence are being practiced in the name of this religion. But some people's interpretation of certain verses of the Quran leads them to find violence there as well. They read the Quran with a powerful narrative, reading it in a way that serves as a guiding thought, reading it in reverse. Mr. Khomeini read it one way before the revolution and another way after the revolution. He handed a sword to the Prophet. If you read it this way, yes. But if you read it as a declaration of independence and freedom, you see that there is violence reduction in the Quran. There is no violence in the Quran. When it says 'there is no compulsion in religion,' it does not only mean that you should not be forced to become a Muslim. (But it means that) there is no rule or decree in religion that is based on force. However, it is said that if a Muslim turns away from his religion, his killing is obligatory. This is not in the Quran. There are 14 verses in the Quran regarding apostasy, and none of them state that it is a crime. These are derived from what is known as Israeli traditions. They are derived from what has been common in other religions, apostasy, insulting the prophet. None of these are in the Quran. Exactly this is it. We see you have a book, the Quran. Allameh Tabatabai, the author of Al-Mizan, says that one can become a jurist without opening the Quran. Because jurisprudence does not refer to the Quran at all. Its basis is narrations. And any narration can be found... Therefore, your interest in the Prophet of Islam is that he established a council democracy... Not government. Power is government. Council democracy. Exactly. Because the most important things in the Quran are that there is no mention of the rule of the jurist, government, or state; you will not find any sign of it in the Quran.
Thank you very much. We move on to your second guest, Ali Ibn Abi Talib.
Guests of Abolhassan Banisadr / Ali Ali Ibn Abi Talib (23 years before Hijra to 40 AH): A prominent figure of early Islam Fame: The first Imam of Shiites and the fourth caliph of the Rightly Guided Caliphs Reason for invitation: When someone takes office, whether they like it or not, they deal with power. If you can say no, no, no, no until they kill you in the place of worship, it requires a remarkable ability. Why did I choose him? Because I see that from that time until now, a continuous reality exists. When someone takes office, whether they like it or not, they deal with power. It is the state. Now, if you want to enforce rights, you will be in conflict with that apparatus called the state. How much can you resist against this power? How much can you say no? If you can say no, no, no, no until they kill you in the place of worship, it requires a remarkable ability. For this reason, I invited him.
This is what some believe that the prevailing Shia view is that Imam Ali had the right to lead the Muslims after the Prophet's death and did not get it; how do you interpret this? Two leaders of the Arabs approached him at the time of the Prophet's death. One was the head of Bani Abbas and the other was the head of Bani Umayyah, who said, 'Come, we will pledge allegiance to you.' The first 'no' he said was there. He said, 'I am an Imam; I am not a government leader that you pledge allegiance to me, and I offer you services in return.' In fact, it was there that he said, 'No, I am not.' If he wanted, he would have accepted. He did not accept.
Then why did he accept later? Later, when they revolted against Uthman and approached him, he stated his conditions and for a long time he refused, saying, 'No, go find someone else.' When they accepted his conditions, he announced them and said, 'I know that when it comes to action, many will falter.' As it later faltered. Talha and Zubair revolted against him. Because he did not grant privileges. He accepted and became a model for humanity, which I say many have followed from that time until today and stood against power and said 'no.' He accepted and said, 'If I come, I will do these things.' He started those same things.
Someone approached him, one of the pragmatists of that time, saying, 'Sir, you should accept this Muawiyah. Stabilize him as a ruler. After a while, when he accepts the caliphate, you can dismiss him.' He cannot resist against your caliphate, and you can easily get rid of him. He said, 'If I die in the meantime, the responsibility for the injustices he commits will be on me. Why should I accept this responsibility?' Acting rightly and not acting according to expediency is the model that made Ali, Ali.
Now we move to your third guest, the son of Imam Ali, Imam Hussein. What importance does he hold for you?
Guests of Abolhassan Banisadr / Hussein Hussein Ibn Ali (4 to 61 AH): A prominent figure of early Islam Fame: The grandson of the Prophet of Islam and the third Imam of Shiites Reason for invitation: There comes a time when it is a moment of choice. Here you must either surrender or accept death, but you must stand for the truth. Hussein is a great teacher for all those who stand for the truth. The reality is that there comes a time when it is a moment of choice. Here you must either surrender or accept death, but you must stand for the truth. Many reach this moment but surrender. It is rare and precious for those who stand at that moment and say, 'No, I choose the truth.' The reason is that he is a great teacher for all those who stand for the truth. To imagine a minority standing in a waterless desert against a large army, with a caliphate system behind that army, and those few righteous people standing in the realm of history triumphing over that newly founded empire. For this reason.
Your fourth guest is Dr. Mohammad Mossadegh. I spent my youth and adolescence with Mossadegh. In every political aspect... for every reason, we were together for a long time.
Guests of Abolhassan Banisadr / Mohammad Mossadegh Mohammad Mossadegh (1261-1345 SH): Lawyer, politician, and Prime Minister of Iran Fame: Leadership of the oil nationalization movement Reason for invitation: One reason is that I spent a long time with him; my youth and adolescence were spent with Mossadegh. Two, he is a symbol of independence and freedom. Two, he is a symbol of independence and freedom. In that book I wrote and the documents that exist, many times I was so proud that I cried. You see that this state has returned. A person stands in front of powers and tells the American ambassador, 'What does it matter to you?' This theory of non-alignment that I expanded into a general theory is from him and Modarres. These two characters first used it, and I owe it to them. Those Iranians who apply this guiding principle of living in independence and freedom in a country that has the most neighbors and has always been subjected to external aggression have managed to make life subject to their own will throughout history. This is thanks to this non-alignment. This means that he had a place to be present at this dinner.
But various factors led to Mohammad Mossadegh's downfall. With a military coup and internally, some of his supporters withdrew their support. Do you think Mossadegh could have remained in power? According to what I said about Ali Ibn Abi Talib, no. It reaches a point where a choice must be made. Either he must say that independence and freedom are the rights of the Iranian people and must stand on this right or surrender... Many say that a better contract could have been signed, and the coup of August 28 would not have happened... These are fabrications of the mind because that movement towards independence and freedom was already dead and did not exist anymore. It was unclear whether Iran would even remain with this despotism and dependency. One had to stand there and say no. He stood and said no.
Now we move to your last guest, Hussein Nobav. What interest do you have in Hussein Nobav?
Guests of Abolhassan Banisadr / Hussein Nobav Hussein Nobav: Banisadr's advisor during his presidency Reason for invitation: He was my friend and advisor. During hard times, he came to me and took me to hiding places. They wanted him to say that he could live if... and he said no... Well, he was my friend and advisor. During hard times, he came to me and took me to hiding places. They wanted him to say that he could live if... and he said no. I do not want this life that you tell me to surrender to. I want to live in freedom. This is also a continuous reality. Before him, Dr. Fatemi, who had the same relationship with Mossadegh, followed the same method. He could have written a letter of regret. Some wrote it. But he did not write it.
What did they want Hussein Nobav to say to ensure his life? They wanted him to deny Banisadr, to say that this person was like this and that, and secondly, to express regret and remind of loyalty to Imam Khomeini... He did not accept? He did not accept. And he lost his life... Long live freedom, long live Mossadegh, Banisadr said, and he was executed.
Mr. Banisadr, after all, this is a dinner party. For the guests you invited, do you want to have a dinner as well? Yes! The Prophet would have eaten a date if he had been caught. Ali Ibn Abi Talib would have eaten dry barley bread dipped in water. Hussein Ibn Ali was not very fond of hospitality either. I have not seen Mossadegh to be very fond of food either.