Iranian Feminism: A Struggle or an Effective Movement?

How does Iranian feminism define itself? Why do many still hesitate to label their activities as feminist? Is feminism a movement towards legal equality for women or an opposition to men? Nasser Karami, a journalist and professor at the University of Tromsø, Norway, is known for his work in environmental issues, but he has also followed the ups and downs of Iranian society during his journalism career. He states that Iranian feminism has mostly been about noise and controversy. In contrast, Mahbubeh Abbasgholizadeh, a women's rights activist, considers Iranian feminism to be productive, influential, and a movement generator. We start the program with Mr. Karami. You recently published specific criticisms of the Iranian women's movement, or what we will refer to in this program as Iranian feminism, on your Facebook page. One of the criticisms you raised was that this movement in Iran has not produced any specific outcomes. I would like to start the discussion with this topic and continue. Nasser Karami: I think Iranian feminism remains in the initial definitions of early feminist movements, meaning that feminism is reduced to the fight for equality or women's rights, which dates back to the first half of the twentieth century. However, philosophically, after that period, the concept of feminism has become much broader and more open. The second point is that Iranian feminism has not become localized. There are many instances where women's rights are violated in Iranian culture. One of those instances is certainly violence. However, I feel that the model being used to combat violence against Iranian women is similar to the Indian example and does not reflect the violence against Iranian women. In India, violence against women is systematic and sometimes accepted in laws and customs. But our laws, although violence exists, do not tolerate it. Now, Mr. Karami, I would like to invite Ms. Abbasgholizadeh, another guest on this program, and I ask her to respond to these two points. Mahbubeh Abbasgholizadeh: We should examine Iranian feminism in three periods: before the Constitutional Revolution, after the Constitutional Revolution, and after the Green Movement. When society moves towards having a constitution and modernization, women begin various movements focused on civil and political participation. However, when we look after the Green Movement, we see that Iranian feminism combines with the issue of sexual minorities, from discussions about lesbian women and how they can live to women involved in ethnic movements like Arabs, Kurds, and Turks, whose demands are not about rights but are based on their ethnic issues. Then we come to religious minorities. How many women do we currently have in prison who are Bahá'í and are imprisoned because of their Bahá'í identity? Well, Ms. Abbasgholizadeh, you looked at these historical periods, but for example, a Bahá'í woman who is in prison because of her identity, I don't think has any relation to feminism or the women's movement; you are saying she is in prison because of her identity. Abbasgholizadeh: No, it's not like that. Is a black woman in America who participated in the racial discrimination movement discriminated against just because she was discriminated against? A Bahá'í woman tells me, a Shiite woman, 'Look, I, as a Bahá'í, do not have equal opportunities with you. I am not a first-class citizen like you.' A Turk woman says, 'My language is different from yours...' I want to return to Mr. Karami, but my question for you is that some may question your arguments, saying that being a woman is not the common denominator of the protests you are discussing. You are talking about ethnic or religious minorities, which may not relate to being a woman. Abbasgholizadeh: This intertwining of feminism with other social identities that you and I have and the various hats we all wear. But let me pose this question to Mr. Karami, who mentioned the form of combating violence in Iran and said it may not be institutionalized because it has a cultural stigma. If we accept your argument, even if there is a stigma, we see that it happens, and this violence is inflicted on women in various forms. How can we say that it does not have a social base or has a social stigma? Karami: I have no argument that there is violence against women in Iran, and it is widespread and inhumane. We must fight against it. I have no argument about that either, but what I see from the literature and behavior of these women activists in Iran makes me feel that in their subconscious, there is an example of real issues and types of violence in Iran. The reality is that in Iran, the law does not differentiate; if you commit violence against a woman, it is no different from violence against a man. If you beat your wife, she can go to the police station and file a complaint, and they will come and arrest you. At least on paper, such a law exists. In the culture, no man can come to his workplace and proudly say, 'I beat my wife last night.' Even in villages, such a thing does not exist, but despite this, violence exists in a widespread and inhumane manner. Another point I noticed in Ms. Abbasgholizadeh's remarks is that we should not place all the burden of the struggle on this limited group under pressure, often imprisoned and tortured, known as Iranian feminists, but we should not label every activity done by women as Iranian feminism or Iranian feminists. Yes, from the beginning of political movements in Iran, which started in the 1930s and 1940s, you see that women have been alongside men, and if they were not ahead, they were not behind either. They were executed and imprisoned in numbers equal to men or engaged in other social activities. However, the point is that we are talking about a specific group called Iranian feminists. What is their role and function? My biggest criticism of them is that unfortunately, they have not produced much content, and for this reason, the thought and philosophy of feminism has not taken root and become recognized in Iran, and therefore they have been less able to garner support from Iranian society. Often, I see young educated girls around me who are very engaged in social activism but taboo say, 'No, no, I am not a feminist. Don't think I am a feminist.' I, Nasser Karami, am definitely a feminist because I support the environment, but we are discussing this, not that Iranian women have fought for years, but we cannot attribute all that struggle of Iranian women to Iranian feminists. Indeed, you made important points, Mr. Karami. Ms. Abbasgholizadeh, Mr. Karami says we should not label every activity done by women as feminism. I ask you to explain this part for me, and then the very important point Mr. Karami made about Iranian feminism not producing content. Abbasgholizadeh: Look, when we talk about Iranian feminism, are we talking about a group that is supposed to produce content, or are we talking about half of Iranian society that seeks legal equality and the elimination of discrimination? Karami: Excuse me, Ms. Abbasgholizadeh, do you consider half of Iranian society to be members of the Iranian feminist population? Abbasgholizadeh: Look, every woman who has gender awareness and feels that because she is a woman, she is different from her brother, father, colleague, and classmate, and must fight for equal rights and opportunities is engaging in feminist activity. When we talk about feminism, we are not talking about an ideology where a girl comes and says, 'I have this ideology or not.' Feminism is actually an approach and a perspective towards daily life intertwined with our femininity. Therefore, when we look at a Bahá'í woman or a woman who tells you, 'I am not a feminist,' all of them are actually carrying femininity with them, simultaneously carrying the taboos or ethnic and daily discriminations, and the resistance they put up against this situation is a feminist resistance. The production that comes from this is that Ms. Heydari, you should look back at yourself and see how much you differ from your mother or a sister who is, for example, ten years older than you. Mr. Karami should look and see how much men of their past generation differ from them. Do you consider this a product of feminism, Ms. Abbasgholizadeh? Abbasgholizadeh: I consider this exactly a product of women's gender awareness and transforming this gender awareness into a social norm so that all people, both women and men, consider themselves partners in this norm. This is what I call the greatest achievement of Iranian feminism. Mr. Karami, the point Ms. Abbasgholizadeh is making is noteworthy. After all, we witness changes in Iranian society. How much do you consider this a product of what feminists have said in the public sphere? How much do you consider it a product of their efforts, their going to the streets, and their protests, and how much can you quantify this? Karami: Look, I consider Ms. Abbasgholizadeh's argument similar to the argument of the Islamic Republic, which says people come to the streets for Ashura and claims, 'Look, people have become more religious,' or that if people pray at home, they interpret it as support for the regime. In my opinion, there is no connection. Now it is very different from fifty years ago, the percentage of educated people, the percentage of books published; this is very different, and it is clear that Iranian women have come to the streets and participated in production. However, that a woman who has come into the production sphere and works like her husband, bringing home money at the end of the month, is not necessarily related to the activities of Iranian feminists, this specific group that has a list. Ms. Abbasgholizadeh, how much social base does Iranian feminism have? You said half of the population of a country. How much has Iranian feminism been able to establish a base in the daily lives of Iranian women and men? Abbasgholizadeh: Look, I emphasize more on gender awareness and the effort for change and empowerment from within rather than on the word feminism as an ideology or political viewpoint. When I say half of the society, I mean that half of the society consists of women who have gender awareness and are fighting. But when we come to question what this movement has done and what these feminists have done, I want to say that you see this in political participation, in electoral struggles, in the fact that women are present as a social force in the media, and in the fact that political elites consider women as a social force when they want to enter decision-making areas. We did not have these. We have fought for the very essence of the women's movement and for feminism. Yes, these discussions have been held, Ms. Abbasgholizadeh. You are right; these discussions have been elaborated over the years. However, the question that Mr. Karami represents is where these discussions have reached. For example, in all parts of the world, feminist movements are green and environmental movements, but in Iran, the women's movement does not have such characteristics. I ask Mr. Karami to explain this issue so that we can be a bit more concrete about what we mean by product.