Molana's Question to Khomeini at Ashkouri's Dinner: 'Where Did This Violence Come From?'

This week's host is Hassan Youssefi Ashkouri. Mr. Ashkouri is one of the most well-known Islamic activists who believes in the separation of religion and state. He is a writer and religious researcher and is politically close to the national-religious movement. He was a cleric until about 15 years ago but was defrocked and imprisoned by the Special Court for Clergy for insulting sacred beliefs after attending a conference in Berlin. His belief in the freedom of hijab and the changeability of social Islamic laws created problems for him. He is a supporter of Dr. Ali Shariati's ideas and became a member of parliament after the revolution. Mr. Ashkouri currently lives in Bonn, Germany, and I have come to this city to see him. Thank you very much for participating in this program. May I ask you who you would like to invite to your dinner party? Host/Hassan Youssefi Ashkouri: Guests: Socrates, Jalal al-Din Muhammad Balkhi known as Molana, Tahereh Qorri al-Ain, Ayatollah Khomeini, and Ali Shariati. The dinner menu: white fish with fava beans. I also have a few people in mind and have invited them. These five people, in chronological order, are: Socrates, Jalal al-Din Muhammad Balkhi known as Molana or Rumi, Tahereh Qorri al-Ain, Ayatollah Khomeini, and Ali Shariati. These five are our guests tonight. How interesting! It is certainly fascinating, and you will explain to the audience why you chose these guests. But since it is a dinner party, I know you were previously a cleric and Islam is still an important part of your life. I don't know if you will like it, but we want to play some music as well. What music do you have in mind? That sounds great. Music is an integral part of human emotion and thought. I completely agree with music. However, choosing music is also a very difficult task. There are various types of music. But the music I want to choose today is 'Jan-e Jahan,' a famous and lasting piece by Mohammad Reza Shajarian. The lyrics are from one of your guests' poems. Yes, the poem is from the Divan-e Shams of Molana, which Shajarian performed years ago with his beautiful voice and wonderful music. But my choice is mainly because Molana is one of our guests, and naturally, he would enjoy hearing his poetry sung by Shajarian's beautiful voice. Certainly, Molana would also enjoy the heavenly voice of Master Shajarian. Well, your first guest is Socrates. What significance does Socrates have for you that you want to invite him to dinner? The truth is that there is a kind of nostalgia for me. I remember when I was sixteen or seventeen years old and had just started reading books and magazines; I accidentally read two or three articles about Socrates. Since then... At that time, you were a cleric? Hassan Youssefi Ashkouri: Yes, I was a cleric. Socrates became very attractive and prominent to me, and he still is. There are two or three characteristics of Socrates that are still appealing to me. What are these characteristics? One is Socrates' monotheism, which I later read in the philosophy of Socrates and his commentators, who generally believe that he was exceptionally monotheistic in Greece and not polytheistic, contrary to the common thought of the time among Greek philosophers. It is completely normal that I had a monotheistic inclination, was a Muslim, and found it attractive. But that is not all because we had many monotheists. However, two other characteristics of Socrates have also been attractive to me and have captivated many: the issue of freedom and the defense of freedom and respect for the law, which Socrates demonstrated at that time. Socrates was tried and condemned, but at the last moment, when he was speaking to his judges, he said, 'You have tried me today and condemned me to death. I respect your judgment and will act accordingly.' This defense of freedom and respect for the law, where he was willing to accept death but not act against the law, is significant. His students said, 'Let us help you escape from prison.' He replied, 'I will not escape.' In my teenage years, respect for the law was not important to me. Now, at this age and with the experience we have from Iran and its conditions, the issue of respect for the law is very appealing to me. Your guests, Hassan Youssefi Ashkouri/Socrates: Socrates (470 to 399 BC): Greek philosopher and thinker. Fame: Introducing ethics into philosophy and founding the dialectical method. Reason for invitation: He was monotheistic; the issue of freedom and his defense of freedom and respect for the law is appealing to me. His way of thinking and reasoning, known as Socratic reasoning, is of great importance. Finally, the last issue with Socrates that is very important because he can still be a teacher today is the type of thinking and reasoning known as Socratic reasoning. He asks a question, and the other person gives an answer, and he gives another answer, and another answer. Reaching a specific goal is not the goal. The goal is to create a mental exercise, and in this dialectical dialogue, thought and intellect grow. This is something that, in my opinion, we owe to Socrates after 2500 years, and if this way of thinking and Socratic reasoning takes root among our thinkers, I believe we will have taken an important step. Do you think the religion or Islam you see can accommodate this kind of Socratic questioning? Even if we say Islam does not go to the end of reasoning because we use the Socratic method, we may eventually reach the end of the line. We may reach God. I see no problem with that. But at the same time, even if that is not the case, at least within the framework of specific religious thought, we can apply this reasoning method, and at least within the framework of religion, it can be useful for believers. Now, it is very possible that this reasoning method may ultimately lead to the denial of religion. In my opinion, there is no problem. At the same time, for believers who have difficulties, I believe this method is applicable. Your guests, Hassan Youssefi Ashkouri/Molana: Molana Jalal al-Din Balkhi Rumi (586 - 652 AH): Renowned poet and mystic. Important works: Masnavi, Fihi Ma Fihi, Divan-e Shams Tabrizi. Reason for invitation: Molana has provided a different interpretation of Islam. The kind of Islam that Molana represents, which can also be an Islam of tolerance and moderation, is what our society needs today. Now we come to your second guest, Molana Jalal al-Din Molavi Balkhi or Rumi. The fact is that Molana is a very prominent figure in the history of Iran and Islam and has had a significant impact. Especially in the last thirty to fifty years after the Iranian revolution, many who were previously selected from the jurists turned to mysticism and the khanqah. Now, in the last thirty to forty years, in the rigidity of jurisprudence in Iran and the intellectual and cultural repression in Iran, many have sought refuge in Molana. Molana has provided a different interpretation of Islam. The kind of Islam that Molana represents, which can also be an Islam of tolerance and moderation, is what our society needs today. Therefore, one role of Molana is that he is one of the few central figures that embodies the intersection of Iranian and Islamic identity. Another issue is the special place that Molana holds in our mysticism and literature. If we want to point out four or five peaks in our mystical literature and the connection between Iranian and Islamic identity, undoubtedly one of them is Molana. Your guests, Hassan Youssefi Ashkouri/Tahereh Qorri al-Ain: Tahereh Qorri al-Ain (1230 to 1268 AH): Iranian poet and writer. Works: Articles in the book 'Zuhur al-Haq' and writings in the book 'Kawakib al-Dariyah.' Reason for invitation: She is a woman who had the courage and independence of thought to rebel against her social, cultural, and familial conditions and accept a new thought and a new religion. I completely understand why you want Molana to be one of your guests. I also understand Socrates. But your third guest, Tahereh Qorri al-Ain, was one of the pioneering women who removed her hijab 150 years ago and was a proponent of Babism. What special interest do you have in Qorri al-Ain as a Muslim? The people I chose were not selected based on religious and ideological criteria. They were chosen because of their importance in Iranian history. This importance can be positive or negative. Up to a point, it can be positive and at another point negative. I thought about which of these five could be more prominent, although the selection was difficult for me. I thought one of them could be Fatemeh, known as Qorri al-Ain. The characteristic she has is, first of all, being a woman. A woman, 160 or 170 years ago, comes and, regardless of whether her thought was right or wrong, and whether Babism is right or wrong, naturally, as a Muslim, I am neither a Babi nor a Bahai nor an Azali... But aside from that issue, she had the courage and independence of thought to rebel against her social, cultural, and familial conditions and accept a new thought and a new religion. Changing one's religion is not easy. She was independent, a freedom seeker, and had the audacity to initiate such a significant rebellion and continue to the end, ultimately being imprisoned in her home. According to Shia jurisprudence, if a woman becomes apostate, she should not be killed, but if a man becomes apostate and does not repent, he can be killed under certain conditions. However, a woman should be so confined at home and subjected to such harsh treatment that she dies. That is worse than execution... it is a slow death... she must die through torture! For this reason, she was imprisoned in an attic in Tehran. But eventually, apparently due to her influence or other reasons, the government decided that she must be killed, and they suffocated her. Therefore, Tahereh Qorri al-Ain was a pioneer and initiator among women in her time, particularly in the series of Iranian women. In Badakhshan, when she removed her veil, it seems that this removal was symbolic, indicating that Islamic law was no longer valid. At that time, they interpreted the removal of the hijab as being naked and exposed. Such statements were not present. At that time, women wore veils and removed them in a gathering of men. She performed a symbolic act. It was a very significant taboo-breaking act. For this reason, Tahereh Qorri al-Ain is important to me. Your guests, Hassan Youssefi Ashkouri/Ayatollah Khomeini: Ayatollah Ruhollah Khomeini (1281-1368 AH): Founder of the Islamic Republic. Works: Tahrir al-Wasilah, Islamic Government or Velayat-e Faqih, Sahifeh Nour. Reason for invitation: I learned politics, struggle, and rebellion from Mr. Khomeini. Whether we accept it or not, Ayatollah Khomeini is one of the influential figures in contemporary Iranian history. Your fourth guest is Ayatollah Khomeini, and we do not know what he would say if he saw Qorri al-Ain at a dinner party! Why did you invite Ayatollah Khomeini? Normally, if Ayatollah Khomeini saw Qorri al-Ain at a dinner party, he would issue a takfir ruling against her. Regarding Ayatollah Khomeini... as Molana says: 'When does the first love leave the heart...' I was twelve or thirteen when I became a cleric. I learned politics, struggle, and rebellion from Mr. Khomeini. Whether we accept it or not, Ayatollah Khomeini is one of the influential figures in contemporary Iranian history. He has two faces: one before the revolution and one after the revolution. In the pre-revolution period, I can say that two people influenced me politically and intellectually: one was Ayatollah Khomeini and the other was Shariati, who is my fifth guest. From my perspective, one phase is positive until the revolution, where he led the revolution to victory. Its significance is from two perspectives: one personal and one public and social. From a personal perspective, because I still believe in the revolution and consider the event of the revolution a positive thing in Iranian history, I view his work positively. The other is from a social perspective, regardless of whether I agree or disagree. In any case, he was able, through his perseverance, courage, and strength, to position a revolution after 15 years of resistance and perseverance in such a way that it was not artificial but naturally emerged from a public movement, and both the left and right, religious and non-religious, all said, 'As long as there is blood in our veins, Khomeini is our leader.' I emphasize that I do not want to evaluate this part. I believe this figure is a historically influential figure. However, what happened after the revolution is that, naturally, after the revolution, I separated from that initial love and ultimately saw that Ayatollah Khomeini, contrary to the initial role he played in the victory of the revolution, unfortunately, did not act correctly during the period of bringing the revolution to fruition and fulfilling its promises. He made serious mistakes and had many slips, and therefore today, after the revolution, I am one of his critics. However, my selection here was because he is a politically and socially influential figure in contemporary Iranian history, and of course, it is still too early for us to want to comprehensively discuss Khomeini and his works and the consequences of his thoughts.