Nasrin Sotoudeh's Dinner Party; How Did the Indians Avoid the Trap of Hatred?

This week's host is Nasrin Sotoudeh. Ms. Sotoudeh is one of the most prominent human rights lawyers in Iran and a women's rights activist. She has represented many political and social activists. Her activities, including her membership in the Human Rights Defenders Center and the One Million Signatures Campaign against discriminatory laws against women, led to her imprisonment for three years in 2010 on charges of acting against national security. She went on a hunger strike in protest against prison conditions and the travel ban on her 12-year-old daughter. Ms. Sotoudeh's conviction sparked international outcry, and the European Parliament jointly awarded the Sakharov Prize for Freedom of Thought to her and filmmaker Jafar Panahi. A meeting of a European Parliament delegation with her and Mr. Panahi at the Greek embassy in Tehran three years ago incited anger among hardline groups in Iran. Nasrin Sotoudeh lives in Tehran, and I spoke with her over the phone. Host: Nasrin Sotoudeh. Guests: Mahatma Gandhi, one of the Mothers of Plaza de Mayo, Parvaneh Farrokh, Dr. Mohammad Mossadegh, and Ayatollah Montazeri. Music: "The Clamor of Stars" sung by Parvin. Dinner Menu: Saffron rice with chicken alongside broad bean stew without eggs. Ms. Sotoudeh, welcome to the program. First of all, I wanted to ask you who you invited to your dinner party? I invited Mahatma Gandhi, one of the Mothers of Plaza Mayo in Argentina, Parvaneh Farrokh, who was horrifically murdered in my country, Dr. Mohammad Mossadegh, and Ayatollah Montazeri. Thank you very much for your guests. You will certainly provide explanations later about your special interest in these five individuals. But before that, I wanted to ask you what music you would like to play for the dinner party? I have the music "The Clamor of Stars" or "Tonight I Have a Fever" that Parvin used to perform back in the day and was very popular. I want to play that. About Nasrin Sotoudeh: Nasrin Sotoudeh is one of the most prominent human rights lawyers and women's rights activists, having represented many political and social activists. Her human rights activities, including her membership in the One Million Signatures Campaign, led to her imprisonment for three years in 2010 on charges of acting against national security. She currently lives in Tehran. The reason is that sense of liberation and talking about inner desires and the whisper that exists behind this poem, which speaks of our inner whispers, sharing her wishes and dreams with the listener. That is why I have loved this song since childhood. Let’s return to the guests you selected for your dinner party. First, Mahatma Gandhi... For over half a century, Gandhi's struggle was focused on so-called 'bad' laws. Laws that disregarded human rights. Gandhi, as someone who was educated in law, bravely and openly broke the boundaries of bad laws in public. This was a very significant and great act in his time. So, even though he was a lawyer and respected the law... Do you find it interesting that he did not respect an unjust law? Nasrin Sotoudeh: Yes, completely. He challenged the unjust law and did so publicly in the streets and during the Salt March to the sea to collect a bowl of water to fight against the unjust salt law... That method is very admirable to me. The non-violent method to confront British colonialism in India ultimately benefited Gandhi, as India became independent and Britain left the country. Both the non-violent method, which is well-known, and the public declaration of his demands in a clear and open manner were characteristics of the method Gandhi adopted, and I think it deserves reflection and learning. Your second guest is one of the Mothers of Plaza Mayo in Argentina. In Argentina, you know that during six years from 1976 to 1982, after the military coup and the establishment of a military government, more than 30,000 young people disappeared. The Argentine government never provided any reports about them to their families. Later it became clear that they were kidnapped from the streets, tortured, and then thrown into the waters of seas and oceans. The Mothers of Plaza Mayo had been gathering for years in Plaza Mayo in Argentina in front of the presidential palace, demanding to know the status of their children, especially asking for their return alive. The Mothers of Plaza Mayo (1977-present): A social movement of mothers of the disappeared in Argentina. Fame: Fighting against the military government. Reason for invitation: This movement, which serves as a symbol of legal justice and peaceful advocacy by the mothers, was able to attract public attention, which I find significant. Do you think the Mothers of Laleh Park in Iran, formed after the protests of 2009, were influenced by the Mothers of Plaza Mayo? Certainly, human culture is exchanging, and like water, it flows between people in different societies. I think many of these mothers were inspired by the initiative of the Mothers of Plaza Mayo. Now we come to your third guest, Ms. Parvaneh Farrokh, who, along with her husband, was murdered years ago during the chain murders in Iran. Parvaneh Eskandari (1938-1998): A political activist and leader of the Iran Nation Party. Fame: One of the victims of the chain murders. Works: "Maybe One Day" (a collection of poems). Reason for invitation: Despite being a strong, resilient, and invulnerable character, she was full of love, kindness, life, and peace. A person who lived in complete peace with herself but was horrifically murdered in a society rooted in violence. I became acquainted with Parvaneh Farrokh in 1991 during a press interview when I was working as a journalist, and after that, our acquaintance turned into friendship. Parvaneh Farrokh was not only full of energy and life but always emphasized the peacefulness of struggles. Because through anger and hatred, what is created is diminished, and what can add to all of us is love and kindness. I remember all this from Parvaneh Farrokh. But unfortunately, it is very painful to say that in our country's history, we have this tragedy, and I wish we could think of a way to ensure that such behaviors never repeat in our history. You said you knew Parvaneh Farrokh closely. What kind of person was she personally? Parvaneh Farrokh, while being a strong, resilient, and invulnerable character, was also full of love, kindness, life, and peace. A person who lived in complete peace with herself but was horrifically murdered in a society rooted in violence. It may be strange that regarding Ms. Farrokh and her husband and other murders, there has been no proper justice in Iran. Exactly. The justice that the families of the chain murder victims referred to as a judicial trap for me, saying that however we wanted to deal with this case, it was as if a legal trap had been set for us to fall into. Therefore, we know that ultimately they withdrew from pursuing the case and left it as it was. The main reason for them was that the main objectives of this case, which was to identify the perpetrators of this incident, were not addressed. Now we come to your fourth guest, Dr. Mohammad Mossadegh, the Prime Minister of Iran in the 1950s who was ultimately overthrown by a coup. Dr. Mohammad Mossadegh served as Prime Minister of Iran during two terms in various years. However, his political stature weighs heavily in Iranian history, especially as it was accompanied by many significant events. But my choice of him as a guest at my dinner party is mainly due to his educational background in law and especially the very important law that was passed during his premiership. The law of independence of the Bar Association, which is an important law in preserving the independence of the Bar Association. I invited him mainly for that aspect of Mohammad Mossadegh. Your last guest is Ayatollah Montazeri. Ayatollah Hossein Ali Montazeri (1922-2009): Shia cleric and one of the founders of the Islamic Republic. Fame: Various political activities, including resigning from the vice leadership in the 1980s. Works: Jurisprudential books, foundations of Islamic government jurisprudence, memoirs, and other works. Reason for invitation: I would like to pause on Ayatollah Montazeri's character as the father of human rights in Iran. I would like to emphasize whenever I speak of events in the 1980s on Ayatollah Montazeri's character as the father of human rights in Iran. Because all those whose rights have been violated in Iran turned to this person, and all of them say that they achieved results. Many families of prisoners spoke to me and said that in the difficult conditions where they had been unaware of their imprisoned relatives for months, they went to his office, and he made it so that their imprisoned relatives called them that night after months. Or I know many who were under death sentences, their sentences were revoked due to the intervention of his representative in prison. Or a significant work he did was related to the serious pursuit of saving imprisoned women from a jurisprudential perspective. And I would like us to repeat all this so much that we promote this behavior. Another very significant work of his that has recently been raised again in Iranian society was his opposition to the executions of 1988. The prisoners who were executed in prisons. Yes. That is also one of his very important works. Also, our Baha'i compatriots benefited from several of his fatwas regarding the observance of the civil rights of Baha'is. All of these create better conditions for Iranians, whether Baha'i, communist, Christian, Muslim, etc. He even has a fatwa stating that apostates should not be killed because he believes this was specific to a certain period, and today if a rational and mature person wants to change their religion, they should be able to. Yes. Especially the importance of his fatwas and his candid and straightforward opinions, which he declared with complete courage and honesty, is embedded in the fact that he made these statements in a context where society was imprisoned in the conditions after the revolution. That is, there was a prevailing mindset that the dominant discourse was towards increasing strictness. He consistently moved towards greater leniency in various periods. I think Ayatollah Montazeri laid the groundwork for tolerance after the revolution. Very well, Ms. Sotoudeh. Your guests have been identified. We will certainly return to the guests at the end of the program. But before that, I wanted to ask what food you have planned for the guests at dinner? Yes. I have planned saffron rice with chicken for the guests. Especially since there are two foreign guests among them, I think if we prepare the food simply, they might enjoy it... But excuse me, I wasn't paying attention... Gandhi! Yes. Gandhi doesn't eat meat! No. I have to add another menu item for him. Perhaps I will prepare broad bean stew without eggs for him. We are from Rasht. Broad bean stew without eggs is not possible! Well, we ourselves are from the North! I am from Langarud. Yes, I know! Now most of your guests will eat saffron rice, and Gandhi will have broad bean stew without eggs, and I have another music piece "Tonight I Have a Fever". What do you want to talk about with them? First of all, I would like to ask the mother I invited from Plaza Mayo to speak continuously for me. I want to learn from their experiences. How did this way of thinking form among them? How did they come to the conclusion to stand simply in the middle of the square and place white handkerchiefs as a sign of their missing children on their heads? What power compelled them to do such a thing in the face of military violence in the middle of the city square? Do you have questions for Gandhi, Parvaneh Farrokh, Dr. Mossadegh, and Ayatollah Montazeri, or will you let them speak for themselves? I have questions for some of them. For example, I would like to ask Gandhi that during his half-century of struggles, the focus of his attack was on the British, how did he manage to organize the struggle in such a way that Indians, while insisting on their demands that ultimately led to victory, did not fall into the trap of hatred against those they were fighting against? They never fell into hatred of the British. Even after their revolution, they maintained relatively normal relations with Britain, which they continue to have today.