Nehru Enjoys Biryani at Hassan Kamshad's Dinner Party

Host: Hassan Kamshad Guests: Thomas Paine, Vladimir Minorsky, Jawaharlal Nehru, Arham Sadr, and Shahrokh Meskoub Music: Vivaldi's Four Seasons Dinner Menu: Isfahani Biryani Hassan Kamshad, an Iranian translator and writer, passed away on May 21, 2025, just shy of his 100th birthday. In honor of this occasion, we are republishing an interview with him that was published by Radio Farda when he turned 90. This week's host is Hassan Kamshad, a renowned Iranian translator and researcher of Persian literature. He was a professor of Persian language at Cambridge University for many years and obtained his PhD in Persian literature from the same university. His Persian translation thesis titled "Founders of Persian Prose" was published in Iran. Mr. Kamshad has translated dozens of books in the fields of history and philosophy, including "What is History?", "The History of Philosophy", "In Service of the Peacock Throne", "The Rise of Reza Khan", and "The Qibla of the World". He has published his memoirs under the title "Hadith Nafas". Mr. Kamshad is over 90 years old and lives in London. I have had a conversation with him at his home. Welcome, Mr. Hassan Kamshad, to the hosting program. First of all, please tell me who you would like to invite for dinner? I thought my first guest would be Thomas Paine, the second Vladimir Minorsky, the third Jawaharlal Nehru, the fourth Arham Sadr, and the last Shahrokh Meskoub. Very well. Shahrokh Meskoub is one of your old friends. Absolutely. I will later ask you why these five individuals are important to you, especially Arham Sadr, your fellow townsman from Isfahan. But before that, I wanted to see what music you would like to play for your esteemed guests so that everyone can enjoy the dinner together. Hassan Kamshad: The Four Seasons Selected Music: Symphony of the Four Seasons by Antonio Vivaldi The music I would like to be played is Vivaldi's "Four Seasons". The reason is that when I retired, I turned to translation, and in the 1990s, which was the peak of my writing career, I translated 11 works in the first seven years. These 11 translations and others during that time were done at this table while listening to Vivaldi's "Four Seasons". It inspired me... So Vivaldi has also served the Iranians who read your translations... I hope so. Now let's talk about the guests you have chosen. The first one you mentioned is Thomas (Tom) Paine. Thomas Paine (1737-1809): A British-American intellectual, scholar, and revolutionary Fame: One of the Founding Fathers of the United States Works: Common Sense, The American Crisis, and The Rights of Man Reason for Invitation: I think he is one of the fascinating figures of his time. What I find most interesting about Paine is that a corset maker became a writer, a writer who gained popularity. Tom Paine is, in my opinion, one of the intriguing figures of his time. He was a corset maker living in the town of Thetford, located in northeastern London. He was dissatisfied with his life. Often secretly, he read books away from his father. One day he went to see the British colonies' representative in America, who was Benjamin Franklin at the time. He said he wanted to go to America because he was tired of this country. In any case, he spoke to Franklin in such a way that he impressed him. Franklin sat down and wrote a letter to his son-in-law, and Paine took this letter with a ship that was at sea for over three months and arrived in Philadelphia. Franklin's son-in-law also wrote him a letter, and he went to someone who had a printing press and a publication and started working there. Thus, he became almost a journalist. Later in America, he wrote a book titled "Common Sense". In this book, he stated that these colonies (i.e., America) should become independent and form a great country and free themselves from British colonialism. He was strongly opposed to royal government. This book circulated widely, and people read it. He also published pamphlets every month encouraging this nation (America) to gain its independence. So your interest in Thomas Paine is as a thinker who fought for American independence or as a writer. What is important to you? Paine's character is most interesting to me as a corset maker who became a writer, a writer who gained such popularity. After American independence was achieved, he returned to England and wanted to make England a republic as well. But here (in England), no one gave him a place, and he had to flee to France. When he reached the French coast, he was arrested and taken to the convention representative. But later, when Robespierre came to power with his revolutionary stance, they imprisoned Thomas Paine. Then the American ambassador and others rescued him, and he returned to America. However, during this time, he wrote a book that was anti-religious, and he cited some things mentioned in the Bible as examples, stating that these were nonsense and not useful. These words incited people against him. When he returned to America, his friends like Washington and Jefferson had risen to power, but because Thomas Paine had gained notoriety for writing that anti-religious book, they were afraid to get too close to him. Therefore, the last years of Thomas Paine's life were spent in misery and he faced the worst conditions in his old age. It is interesting that he might have known that writing against Christianity would have such consequences for him, but he believed in the independence of opinion and did his work. Absolutely. Because both in France and in America, he was so successful that he had gained independence of opinion and thought that with his personality and popularity, he could also write and publish that anti-religious book. However, this was a huge mistake in that era. Your second guest is Vladimir Minorsky. What interest do you have in Minorsky that you want him to be among your guests? Vladimir Minorsky (1877-1966): A Russian Iranologist Works: The Lor People and Lorestan, The Kurds are Descendants of the Medes, Iran: Its Religion and History, and several other works Reason for Invitation: He was a Russian Jew. One of the greatest Iranologists and loved Iran and Iranians. He insisted that you must speak Persian with me. And I did this, and I had grown fond of him. Let me say that luck and chance played a very significant role in my life. In 1954, coinciding with the crackdowns after the coup of August 19, I had collaborated with the Tudeh Party, and I was accidentally invited to go to Cambridge University to teach Persian, and I went. One day while I was sitting in the faculty office, they said someone wanted your phone. I had no acquaintance and was surprised. An old man with a very thick Persian accent introduced himself and said that I am Vladimir Minorsky. He said he wanted to see me and asked me to visit him. I went. He was a Russian Jew. One of the greatest Iranologists and loved Iran and Iranians. He spoke Persian with a very fluent accent, and since he hadn’t spoken Persian for a long time and hadn’t interacted with Iranians, he was desperate and insisted that you should come here two days a week and speak Persian with me. And I did this, and I went to see Minorsky and had grown fond of him. Now your third guest is Jawaharlal Nehru, one of the leaders of India. Jawaharlal Nehru (1889-1964): Indian politician Fame: One of the leaders of the Indian independence movement and the first Prime Minister of India Works: A Glimpse of World History, Discovery of India, Towards Freedom Reason for Invitation: During a trip to Cambridge for a lecture, I met him through one of my students who was close to him, and I spoke with him. When I was teaching at Cambridge, one of my students was an Indian. He had a close relationship with Jawaharlal Nehru. He was supposed to go to Iran and work at the Indian embassy. That was why he was sent to Cambridge to learn some Persian. Coincidentally, Nehru was supposed to come to Cambridge and give a lecture. My student had prepared an invitation for me, and I went. Let me say that Nehru, who was educated at Cambridge University, when he came to speak at the students' union at Cambridge University, initially stood silently for a while and then suddenly burst into laughter. He said, "I studied here about thirty years ago, and every Wednesday when this union had a meeting, I would come and sit in that corner on the chair, and sometimes the speakers would say things that I saw were incorrect, but I never dared to stand up and ask a question. Now that I have come here, suddenly this hall and that corner and that chair have overwhelmed me, and I forgot what I wanted to say..." and he burst into laughter. After Nehru's lecture was over, there was a dinner party where I was invited by my student who had a close relationship with him, and we were seated at the same table as Nehru. During dinner, while talking about this and that, I wanted to make a good impression and said to Nehru that if we had a personality like you in Iran, our situation would be much better. Suddenly, he replied, "You had Mossadegh; what did you do to him!" And I had nothing to answer him. Now we go to Isfahan and Arham Sadr, who was one of the greatest theater actors and could be said to be one of the comedians of Iran. Well, tell me about Arham Sadr. Arham Sadr (1923-2008): Iranian comedian and theater actor Fame: Founder of the critical comedy school in Iranian theater known as the Isfahan School Works: Khalifeh Yek Roozeh, The Turkeys, Night Gathering in Hell, and other works Reason for Invitation: Arham Sadr was in the same class as us since the seventh grade of middle school. Therefore, we had a close friendship. He was the son of the school janitor, and the day he passed away, almost all of Isfahan participated in his funeral. Arham Sadr was in the same class as us from the seventh grade until we graduated. Therefore, we had a close friendship. The first memory I have of Arham Sadr as a comedian, which he might not have even realized at that time, was that one day at Isfahan College, where we were students, they put on a play. In one of the scenes, they brought a bully named Fallah to lift weights. They had set up the weightlifting equipment on stage, and he came and put powder and other things on his hands and went back and forth, and no matter how hard he tried, he couldn’t move the weights, and then he left with his head down. After him, a skinny boy who was sweeping came and cleaned up the powders, and when he was about to leave the stage, he lifted the weights with two fingers and went out. Thus, he stole the entire play from them. That was Arham Sadr. They must have planned this... Yes, yes. One of Arham Sadr's characteristics was that, as you may have seen, he would come on stage and talk to the audience and make jokes. I heard that one time the governor had honored some esteemed guests from Tehran who had come to see Arham Sadr's play. Arham Sadr, as usual, went to the front of the stage and said, "Oh, today Mr. Governor has honored us and is our guest." This day was the fourth of Aban, by the way. Then he said, "Oh God, take ten years off the life of this governor and add it to the life of His Majesty the Shah," and the entire hall said Amen and applauded. The fourth of Aban was the Shah's birthday... Yes, they had come for that reason. After I finished the sixth grade of literature, we separated, and I went to Tehran to the Faculty of Law... I hadn’t seen Arham Sadr for ten or fifteen years. One time I went to Isfahan, and the person who was hosting us invited us one night to go see Arham Sadr's play, and since we were ten or fifteen guests, and he had to buy tickets, he had bought second-class tickets. Therefore, we were not at the front of the hall but further back. In the middle of the play, Arham Sadr, as usual, came to the front of the stage. At that time, my name was Mir Mohammad Sadeghi. He said, "Is that you, Sadeghi? A hundred years to this year! This friend of mine is good with his pen, but his hand in his pocket leaves much to be desired! Why did you buy a second-class ticket! Get up and applaud for him!" You must have laughed. Yes, there was nothing we could do... But Arham Sadr, who was the son of the school janitor, the day he passed away, almost all of Isfahan participated in his funeral. Arham Sadr also built a hospital in Isfahan with the wealth he had, which still exists and is one of the best hospitals in the city. Did they name it after him? I don’t know what its name is, but everyone knows that it was founded by Arham Sadr. Now your last guest is Shahrokh Meskoub. I think Mr. Meskoub has been one of your closest friends. Tell me about Shahrokh.