No Place in the World is Built on Revolution; Interview with Shahin Fatemi

On the fortieth anniversary of the February 1979 Revolution, an event that has influenced the lives of Iranians over the past four decades, we have revisited this event through forty interviews with historical figures or Iranian activists from the years leading up to the revolution and thereafter, exploring their narratives of this event, its impacts, and their outlook for the future of Iran. In another program from this series of interviews, we have approached Shahin Fatemi, a university professor and economist in Paris. Mr. Fatemi was 42 years old in 1979, living in the United States, and was the head of the economics department in Ohio. He currently resides in France and lives in Paris, and in addition to research in economics, he is considered a political activist. In this special interview, we asked Shahin Fatemi about the reflections on the events prior to the revolution and also about his uncle, Hossein Fatemi, the foreign minister in Mohammad Mossadegh's government. Mr. Fatemi, let's start with 1979 and the days leading up to the Iranian revolution. Can you tell us what you were doing in the United States at that time and how aware you were of the political and social issues in Iran? I was the head of the economics department at Ohio University. After a long time away from Iran, I returned, coinciding with the events of 1979. When I came to Iran, I had come as the head of an American department [and it was intended] to establish a university in Iran so that Iranian students would not face many problems in language and culture by going directly from Iran to America. The university in Iran would allow American students to come to Iran for the first two years and study alongside Iranian students, and then after two years, Iranian students would go to America to complete their studies. For this purpose, after traveling to various cities, a university named Razi in Kermanshah was chosen for this project, which had made significant progress, but after the closure of the embassy [in America] and the ensuing issues, due to the anti-American activities that had begun in Iran after the revolution, it was no longer possible to continue. As the head of an American department during those days in 1979, did you support Ayatollah Khomeini's actions or were you opposed? Not at all [I did not support], I was opposed because I believed that even from the time of Dr. Mossadegh's government, the involvement of religion in politics leads to disaster. [Like] the events that occurred during Dr. Mossadegh's government with Ayatollah Abolqasem Kashani. I had no trust that politics and religion could be merged, and I still do not. At that time, when I came to Iran for academic activities, I still held my position in America and there was significant progress in the work, and all the laboratory equipment and so on for the Kermanshah project were being developed, and I discussed this issue extensively with the then Prime Minister, who believed that the university should be free and, as he said, even the son of a policeman should be able to attend there. I insisted that no, the university is not free, and you, Mr. Prime Minister, should provide a scholarship for the son of a policeman, and if we accept him, he can study at that university. In any case, this university started and operated for a year or two, but it had not yet reached the stage where American students could come to Iran, and unfortunately, this project remained unfinished, and I returned to America and continued my work in economics at the same university where I had started in 1965, and after that, I came to Paris on behalf of that university and continued this cultural activity in Paris until last year when I completely retired. You mentioned that you spoke with the then Prime Minister. Who do you mean? Mr. Amouzgar? Yes, Mr. Amouzgar. You referred to Mossadegh's government. Let's take a look back about 65 years ago, and on the occasion of the nationalization of the oil industry during these days, let's remember Mohammad Mossadegh, the then Prime Minister, and also your uncle, Hossein Fatemi, who was the Minister of Foreign Affairs in Mossadegh's government for about a year, from 1951 to 1952. Hossein Fatemi was tried in a military court following the events of August 28 and was executed on charges of acting against the monarchy and deposing the Shah. How close was this accusation against your uncle, Mr. Fatemi, to reality? You see, the story of Dr. Fatemi begins from August 28. On August 28, when the coup occurred, I was in Tehran. I had just finished high school and was about to travel to America for my studies. At that time, Dr. Fatemi was the Foreign Minister. Until they stormed Mossadegh's house, he was one of those who had plotted to kill him; that night he hid, and the next morning he called me. I was in Tehran, at a friend's house, and I went to meet Dr. Fatemi near his home, at a pharmacy close to Mossadegh's house, where we arranged to meet, and I hid Dr. Fatemi. He was hidden in Tehran for 9 months; unfortunately, I left for my studies in America, and two months later, due to mistakes that were made, Dr. Fatemi got caught, and in November 1952 in Tehran, Dr. Fatemi was killed. Based on my research, I think it was November 1953. 1954, you may be right, yes. The coup occurred in 1953, he was hidden for nine months. That has a detailed story about how he was... I actually want to ask you about that, Mr. Fatemi. You were in close contact with your uncle, Hossein Fatemi, and you knew him well. He was a staunch opponent of British colonialism and opposed the monarchy. Some say Mr. Fatemi wanted a democratic republic in Iran; is this true? Well, I don't know what is meant by a democratic republic. If that term is used in the sense that the leftists used it, meaning a government dependent on the Soviet Union at that time, no, not at all. If democratic means true democracy, then yes. You see, Dr. Fatemi initially was not opposed to the monarchy. He was the only one in Mossadegh's cabinet to receive the first-class Homayoun medal from the Shah. There were few people who received [this medal]. However, on August 25, when the initial coup occurred, they stormed Dr. Fatemi's house at 3 a.m. on the night of August 28, which was actually August 19, 1954, and it was there that the coup failed the next day, and Dr. Fatemi made that famous speech in Baharestan Square. I was standing right under the balcony where he was giving that speech, the famous speech against the Shah who had fled to Italy. This later became a case against Dr. Fatemi, and for a long time after August 28, he was in hiding until he got caught and faced that horrific situation, as he was already ill and had many problems because about a year before that, when he was giving a speech at the grave of Mohammad Masoud, the famous journalist, the Fadaiyan Islam tried to kill him, and he had been shot and still bore the marks of that assassination attempt. In any case, Dr. Fatemi survived and was in hiding in Tehran for 9 months. I left for my studies in America, and a few months later, I heard in the news that Dr. Fatemi had been arrested and executed. This is the life of Dr. Fatemi, with whom I was very close, and his fate led me to have little interest in politics. [Otherwise] I started political activities from those university years. We established the Iranian Students Organization in America, which two of the people who later reached positions in Iran helped with, which was a simple task. One was Qotbzadeh, who became Foreign Minister, and the other was Ebrahim Yazdi, who also became Foreign Minister. Well, this organization was mostly in favor of Mossadegh and his thesis about Iran, and then when the Khomeini revolution occurred, both Qotbzadeh and Yazdi really distanced themselves from that initial thought and joined a religious regime and revolution. Here I would like you to name a favorite song of yours to be played. The famous song of Malek al-Sho'ara Bahar; it has very beautiful lyrics and a beautiful melody, its name is Morgh-e Sahar, and my choice is really Morgh-e Sahar if it's available to you. We continue the conversation. Mr. Fatemi, during the nationalization movement of the oil industry, Hossein Fatemi was close to Mohammad Mossadegh, and according to Mr. Mossadegh, he was the first person to propose the nationalization of the oil industry. Is that correct? Absolutely correct, and I have the document in Mossadegh's handwriting. When we were students in America and published a newspaper called Iran-nameh, I suggested that document in Mossadegh's handwriting, which states the proposal for the nationalization of the oil industry for the first time, which was, of course, written by the late Dr. Hossein Fatemi, who had been killed at that time, and it was presented in the National Front meeting. It is completely correct, and this letter from Mossadegh has cleared this historical issue from any kind of discussion or narration. The document has been published many times. Professor Fatemi, let's return to forty years ago. With your experience of the 1979 revolution and also the events of 1953 in Iran, and your political experiences in general, what do you think is the problem, and why have Iranians not been able to achieve a democratic government in the past hundred years? You see, our fundamental problem is the revolution itself. Revolution means destruction. No place in the world has been built on revolution. In France, which is the mother of revolutions, there was destruction; it needed a Napoleonic figure to come and establish a country, and it is still his works that built France; we saw the Soviet revolution and what disasters it brought; the Chinese revolution, the Cuban revolution... Revolution has never led to freedom anywhere in the world, and freedom and revolution do not go together at all. The Constitutional Revolution, in that sense, was not really a revolution. It was a movement influenced by events that had occurred in Japan a few years earlier, and in Russia, some freedom-seekers came, and they thought of constitutionalism, but they were limited to curbing the tyranny of the Qajar Shah, and the term revolution was later associated with that. In my opinion, the big mistake that my generation made, and I remember in my youth, for example, Fereydoun Tully recited a poem about revolution, and everyone was shouting revolution, while [when] they studied a little about other places in the world, they saw that every revolution ends with a dictatorship: the Russian revolution, the French revolution, the Cuban revolution... Revolution has never reached freedom and democracy. And I have known this from the first day about the Iranian revolution and had no expectation or hope that a democratic system would be born from this revolution. Considering the issues of 1979, Mr. Fatemi, do you think that at that time Iran needed a revolution, or could the Shah's government have prevented the revolution by implementing some reforms? You see, now we have information that we can speak much better about this. As I mentioned, this book that was recently published by Andrew Scott Cooper, an American writer, shows how sick the Shah was and that at least in those last two or three years, he was constantly kept alive with medication, and therefore if the people had known this issue, and if this issue had been made public like everywhere else in the world, I believe that such a situation would most likely not have occurred in Iran, and a revolution would not have happened, and this transfer of power towards a real constitutional monarchy and democracy was completely possible. But unfortunately, that did not happen.