Host: Mehdi Khazali Guests: Ali ibn Abi Talib, Hussein ibn Ali, Hafez, Amir Kabir, Abolqasem Khazali Music: One Day You Will Come... Dinner Menu: Ghormeh Sabzi This week's host is Dr. Mehdi Khazali, one of the most significant critics of the Islamic government of Iran and the leadership of Ayatollah Khamenei within the country. He is the son of Ayatollah Abolqasem Khazali, a hardline cleric who called his son misguided. Mr. Khazali is an ophthalmologist but is more engaged in political and cultural activities. He is the director of Hayyan Publishing and harshly criticizes the Iranian government on his blog for deviating from Islam. In recent years, Mr. Khazali has been arrested multiple times and was released from prison after long hunger strikes. Mehdi Khazali lives in Tehran, and I spoke with him over the phone. [This interview took place before Mr. Khazali's recent arrest.]
Mehdi Khazali: Thank you very much for participating in the host program. I initially wanted to ask you who you invited to the dinner party?
Khazali: Those who have influenced my life. I invited them. It may be a strange combination. I want to express my thoughts, but I want to convey those thoughts through the voices of great figures who may serve as evidence.
As the first guest, I think I have sat at his table my entire life, and everything I have in religious knowledge is from him, Amir al-Mu'minin Ali (peace be upon him). The second guest, who I believe taught me the path of struggle and freedom, is the master of the free, Hussein ibn Ali. The third is Hafez, the fourth is the builder of progress, Amir Kabir, and the fifth is my father.
Khazali: Can you play music for this dinner party based on the guests you invited? What is your music?
Khazali: You must have heard my phone's hold music. One Day You Will Come from the Rainy Streets, performed by Mohammad Isfahani, or by his real name, Mr. Mehdi Vaezi, who was my classmate in school. It conveys a sense of waiting. It expresses the anticipation of the promised savior who wants to save humanity from this sorrow. I think if my father, who was not at all fond of music, were to hear this music, he would certainly be delighted, and the others would naturally be waiting for the promised savior, and this music is certainly suitable for our guests.
Your first guest is Ali ibn Abi Talib, the first Imam of the Shiites. Why did you invite Imam Ali?
Khazali: I believe Ali's conduct is so high and beautiful that he is our best role model. In fact, if we had acted according to Ali's conduct, we would not have found ourselves in this chaotic situation in the Islamic Republic today. Amir al-Mu'minin is a person with all dimensions; from any angle we look at him, he is the perfect human. I consider Ali to be above just being called the sword of God. When Amir al-Mu'minin sits next to a widow or an orphan in Kufa and cries, he holds his face to the fire of the oven and says, 'Burn.' Why were you unaware of these people?
If he is a caliph under whose empire 25 countries of the world exist today, he still appears in his own court and does not object when a Jewish man is given more respect than him. The caliph of Muslims, the emperor and king, comes to court and loses. In these 37 years, we have not seen any of these officials dare to come to court and answer the complainants. But Ali comes and is even condemned. This is the beauty of Ali.
Ali, at the height of power, when his caliphate is usurped, has the power to be patient and does not say, 'I can take the government by the sword.' Because governance is not supposed to be done by the sword. It is supposed to be desired by the people and requested from him to manage the affairs of society. I see the entire path. He is the only caliph among the Rashidun caliphs who did not agree to pledge allegiance at his doorstep. He said, 'I must go to the public place, that is, the mosque of the Prophet, to come there with all the people, meaning democracy, meaning the people's vote...' He referred to the largest gathering where everyone should be present and then said, 'This matter is yours. Governance is your affair; give it to whomever you want.' And they insisted, and he accepted, and when he accepted, he stood and defended the rights of the people who entrusted him and chose him until the end.
I believe Ali's conduct is so high and beautiful that it is the best model for us, and in fact, if we had acted according to Ali's conduct, we would not have found ourselves in this chaotic situation in the Islamic Republic today.
Now we come to your second guest, the son of Imam Ali; Imam Hussein.
Khazali: I feel that today we are in the time of Hussein. All paths have been closed to us, and we must be like Hussein and fight because we have no other way. In fact, the ruling faction has closed all paths and placed us between humiliation and martyrdom. They have created such a narrow space for us, and the world of arrogance has placed us in this situation due to the circumstances we are in. We revolted, and after the revolution, we fell into a religious despotism that is far more dangerous and severe than the despotism of boots.
The same situation that Hussein ibn Ali faced. He had to stand against those who are corrupt, just like us, who have embezzlement and plunder, but in the name of religion. They say we are the caliph of the Prophet and the Imam of Muslims. This proximity makes us pay more attention to the conduct and life of Imam Hussein (peace be upon him) and see what he did and what we should do.
Your third guest is Hafez.
Khazali: I see Shams al-Din Muhammad Hafez (727-792 AH) as a free-spirited rogue who lived in a time when despotism and religious violence were rampant. On one side was Amir Mobarez al-Din, who, as he says, personally beheaded 800 people while reading the Quran and would wash his hands and read the Quran again. After him, Timur the Lame, who was a Quran reciter, carried a large Quran on a cart in front of his army. In such a time, Hafez was caught up with the hypocritical religious rulers who had closed the taverns or, as we might say, the heart and were only pursuing Sharia, asceticism, and hypocrisy. I see all the solutions that Hafez, with his cleverness, opens towards love and knowledge in this man's hands.
In a situation where religious violence is rampant and all knowledge is being suppressed in the name of religion, through Hafez, we can open the way and awaken the people, which is actually the foundation of a cultural movement and then politics. Hafez is establishing this foundation. In today's world and in our current Iran, through reading Hafez and deep contemplation on Hafez, we can establish the cultural foundation of how to speak with the people and with the rulers, and so on.
Your fourth guest is Amir Kabir.
Khazali: Mohammad Taqi Farahani (1186-1230 AH) was a politician and bureaucrat during the Qajar era. He is known as Amir Kabir, the prime minister during the reign of Naser al-Din Shah. I invited him because he was a wise man and a symbol of balance. We see that he establishes Dar al-Funun and a university, and on the other hand, he creates the newspaper Vaghaye Ettefaghieh, and he organizes financial matters. Serious reforms without slogans.
Mr. Amir Kabir... many have come and gone. Society has seen many reformers. But I see rationality manifested in Amir Kabir. He is a reformer who is both religious and a serious reformer. He has reformed political affairs and foreign policy and organized the army and the country's security. He has also come to reform culture.
When they want to vaccinate and then resist, he stands over the dead child of the common man who said, 'If you vaccinate, a jinn will enter your child,' and he stands there crying. He says, 'Why are you crying? He did not let us vaccinate.' He says, 'It is my fault because I did not reform his culture.' I see the disputes. Then we see that like many of our intellectuals today, as soon as they want to become intellectuals, they kick religion, but Amir Kabir defends religion on one side and is also fighting against superstitions and demonstrations.
In all his actions, we see a wise man. Amir Kabir is the epitome of balance. This is what Islam wants. We see that he establishes Dar al-Funun and a university, and on the other hand, he creates the newspaper Vaghaye Ettefaghieh, and organizes financial matters. All the actions taken at that time are serious and beautiful reforms without slogans.
Now, when we see that they pull the rug from under him and he falls into the wrath of the king, how calmly and majestically he does it without making a fuss... He knows that unfortunately, the country is not yet ready... He said, 'At first, I thought the country needed a good prime minister, and then I thought it needed a good king... because he himself fell victim to the king, and the result of his reforms remained incomplete... but I saw that no, it needs good people.' He started cultural work, and unfortunately, it remained incomplete and he was martyred in Fin, Kashan.
What do you think the murder of individuals like Amir Kabir has impacted society and the history of Iran?
We must work to correct the system; otherwise, reformers will always end up in prison or be killed. We must instead create a system that prevents the emergence of an absolute monarchy and does not allow for corruption, as it is today. I hope our Amir Kabir can work and ultimately create a system that does not allow a single person to disrupt the entire system.
Your last guest is Ayatollah Khazali, your father.
Khazali: Abolqasem Khazali (1304-1394 AH) was a well-known cleric and speaker before and after the revolution. He was a member of several terms of the Guardian Council and the Assembly of Experts in Iran. I invited him because I wanted to confront my father with my pains and questions. In this dinner, the whole excuse for the first guests was to show my father something. I brought these figures to say, 'This is the religion I want, dear father. Well, how did Ali act? This Ali who sat at home for 25 years until the people's vote was secured, even though he was the rightful successor of the Prophet. Why should we take the government by force? Why should we even consider cheating in elections to remain in power? Perhaps one day our people do not want us. We acted poorly; if the people do not want a religious government one day, what will Ali do? We had many discussions.
When I said 'there is no compulsion in religion' to my father, that people should not be forced to accept... where does apostasy appear in the Quran? I refute it with twenty verses. If someone becomes an apostate, it is their sin before God. I say there is no compulsion in religion. Later, my father would say, 'No, there is an exception.' I would ask, 'What is the exception?' He would say, 'The truth has been made clear from falsehood.' If it has been made clear and they do not accept, then with the sword. I said, 'Excuse me, this is contrary to the principles of religion. What does it mean? It means you must investigate and not imitate. If you investigate and do not reach what I say, I will kill you.' This is against reason. It is against divine wisdom. It is against the verses of the Quran. Yes, everyone knows that the truth has been distinguished from falsehood, but if someone does not follow the truth, they are with God in the afterlife. It does not concern us.
I asked him to bring a verse for the execution of apostates, and he said we have a hadith. I said I bring twenty verses against it. Is a hadith abrogating a verse, which is the text of the Quran? This invitation was to say, 'Dear father, now you are in the presence of these great figures; see what they say. Is it the same as what you practiced? Are the pains we had, that in my last years, I suffered so much for not voting for Ahmadinejad that I had to go to prison? These were the pains. I wanted to confront him at this dinner.'
What kind of person was your father? Did you have affection for each other? Leaving aside beliefs, what kind of person was he?
He was truly a believer. If he dealt harshly with me, it was because...