Shirin Ebadi's Dinner Party: Bread, Cheese, and Herbs for Carter

Host: Shirin Ebadi Guests: Jimmy Carter, Mohammad Reza Shah Pahlavi, Ruhollah Khomeini, Seyyed Mohammad Beheshti, and Shapur Bakhtiar Music: Nights of Tehran; sung by Parvaneh Dinner Menu: Bread, cheese, and herbs Shirin Ebadi is our host this week. Ms. Ebadi is one of the most prominent lawyers and human rights defenders in Iran. She is the only Iranian to have won the Nobel Peace Prize. She was the first woman to reach the position of court president in the previous government but was dismissed under the Islamic Republic. She has written several important books on children's and women's rights and has published some in English. Recently, she also published her memoirs. For many years, she took on the legal representation of those she believed had been oppressed under the Iranian government. Due to her human rights activities, Ms. Ebadi was ultimately forced to leave Iran. In recent years, she has become a global figure condemning human rights violations in the Islamic Republic. Ms. Ebadi mostly lives in London, and today I had the opportunity to visit her for an interview. Before anything else, I would like to ask you if you could tell us who you invited for your dinner party? About Shirin Ebadi Shirin Ebadi is one of the most prominent lawyers and human rights defenders in Iran. She is the only Iranian to have won the Nobel Peace Prize and was the first woman to reach the position of court president in the previous government but was dismissed under the Islamic Republic. Ms. Ebadi, who is our host this week, lives in London. Shirin Ebadi: From Jimmy Carter, Mr. Khomeini, Mohammad Reza Shah Pahlavi, Shapur Bakhtiar, and Mr. Beheshti... Seyyed Mohammad Beheshti... Ayatollah Beheshti. Thank you very much. What guests you have! Carter, the Shah, Khomeini, Bakhtiar, and Beheshti! Well, before you explain to us why you chose these individuals for your dinner party, can you tell me what music you would like to play for them? I would like to play a song called Nights of Tehran, which was first sung by a female singer when I was a child, though unfortunately, I do not know her name. This has stayed in my memory. This music has been re-sung several times by others. Shirin Ebadi/Nights of Tehran Selected Music: Nights of Tehran Singer: Parvaneh Lyricist: Karim Fakour Composer: Majid Vafadar I remember that many singers have sung Nights of Tehran. But I think the one you are talking about goes back to your childhood nearly fifty years ago, I think Parvaneh sang it. She had a very beautiful voice, and I will try to find Nights of Tehran sung by Parvaneh for you to play at the dinner party. Now we come to the guests you have chosen for the dinner party. You mentioned Jimmy Carter, the President of the United States during the Iranian Revolution. Why do you want to invite him? The issues of the revolution and what led to the Iranian revolution, and the political events that occurred in the region after the revolution have always been among my concerns. Especially since recently documents have been released regarding the connection between Mr. Khomeini and Carter. This reinforces my previous thought because I believe Iran became a victim of the Cold War. Our shared border with the Soviet Union on one side and the internal situation in Iran on the other required that Iran be sacrificed. Because the Shah had cancer and was facing imminent death. It was natural that the discontent among the Iranian people would lead to a revolution. In this revolution, the stronger groups were the leftists. Therefore, what the United States did was to perform a cesarean on the Iranian revolution, and instead of bringing a beautiful baby into the world, a deformed premature infant was born. Why did they do this? Because we had a lot of shared borders with the Soviet Union, and they were afraid that if the leftists came to power in Iran, Iran would fall under the influence of the Soviet Union. You want to invite Carter to the dinner party; do you have a question for him? Yes, my question is whether it is true that Iran became a victim of the Cold War? At the same time, you also invited Ayatollah Khomeini, who came to power after the revolution. Why invite him? Guests of Shirin Ebadi/Ruhollah Khomeini Ayatollah Ruhollah Khomeini (1902-1989): Founder of the Islamic Republic Works: Tahrir al-Wasilah, Islamic Government or Velayat-e Faqih, Sahifeh Nour Reason for Invitation: Question about whether it is correct for a religious leader to disregard his promises? Before coming to Iran, Ayatollah Khomeini made very beautiful statements. Among them was that all groups, including the leftists, are free, women are free, we want to be our own masters, why do you eat frozen meat, in a wealthy country like Iran, why do people pay for electricity, I will bring the oil money to your tables... These were very beautiful words that attracted many, including myself. Unfortunately, in the early days after he arrived in Iran, his words changed. I remember that on March 8, 1979, about forty to forty-five days after the revolution succeeded, on International Women's Day, Ayatollah Eshraqi, Imam's son-in-law, had an interview on the morning news program and said that the Imam believes and has ordered that women working in government offices must wear hijabs. From that moment, I distanced myself from the Iranian revolution. I thought I was an Iranian living in Iran, but this was not the revolution I had hoped for. Because so soon, within less than two months, the words changed. Then, unfortunately, we saw that it changed more and more until it reached the mass execution of political prisoners and the shootings of 1980 and 1988 and many other events. You say that Khomeini did not keep his promises and is responsible for the actions taken; why do you want to invite him to the dinner party? I want to ask whether it is correct for a religious leader to disregard his promises and, in other words, to speak incorrectly and lie? You also invited the Shah of Iran, who was overthrown by Khomeini, and according to your theory, Carter cut off support for the Shah. Why invite the Shah? Guests of Shirin Ebadi/Mohammad Reza Shah Pahlavi Mohammad Reza Shah Pahlavi (1919-1980): Last King of Iran Works: Mission for My Country, White Revolution, Towards a Great Civilization, Answer to History Reason for Invitation: Question about what caused a young democratic king to become a very harsh dictator? The Shah studied in Switzerland and was relatively educated compared to the people of Iran at his time. In the early years of his reign, he adhered more to democracy. He was not so autocratic. Gradually, especially after the events of August 28 and the overthrow of Dr. Mossadegh, he gradually turned towards autocracy. My question is what caused a young democratic king to become a very harsh dictator? Did he really not think that such a way of ruling would pave the way for the overthrow of his son's monarchy? Why should Mr. Bakhtiar be at your dinner party? Guests of Shirin Ebadi/Shapur Bakhtiar Shapur Bakhtiar (1914-1991): Iranian politician Background: Political activist and last Prime Minister of the Constitutional Monarchy in Iran Reason for Invitation: Question about the reason for accepting the premiership and the possibility of paving the way for the government to become a republic Dr. Bakhtiar was an old ally of Dr. Mossadegh and a well-known figure in the National Front. He had fought for democracy and freedom in Iran for years and had paid a price. In the last days of the Shah's reign, he accepted to help someone he had always opposed. However, his colleagues and close associates say it was not to help the Shah. He had chosen this position hoping to establish a referendum that would peacefully transform Iran into a republic. I want to ask whether this is correct? Did he come to accept the premiership with the intention of preventing the rise of a religious dictator and to transform the government into a republic with a fair referendum? Now we come to your last guest, Ayatollah Seyyed Mohammad Beheshti, who was the head of the judiciary in the early revolution. If this can be interpreted in that sense, why did you invite Mr. Beheshti? The issue of the disappearance of Musa Sadr is one of my concerns. Imam Musa Sadr was an Iranian-Lebanese figure who mysteriously disappeared a few months before the revolution. The family of Imam Musa Sadr once came to my office to seek my help in finding him. I was surprised and asked why they were coming to me? The Imam's daughter-in-law was the niece of Khomeini. Why don’t you seek help from the government? I have no position. They said that the Ministry of Foreign Affairs and the government of Iran generally say that political relations cannot be sacrificed for family relations. Guests of Shirin Ebadi/Seyyed Mohammad Beheshti Mohammad Hosseini Beheshti (1928-1981): Iranian politician Background: One of the founders of the Islamic Republic and the first head of the judiciary after the revolution Reason for Invitation: Question about his possible role in the disappearance of Imam Musa Sadr. This was, of course, a question for me as to why such negligence occurred regarding Imam Musa Sadr, who is both an important figure and closely related to Khomeini's family. Until two years ago, two books were published in America, one of which is called A Good Spy: Memoirs of a Former CIA Agent, and the other is research conducted by a social science professor at a well-known American university. These studies show that Imam Musa Sadr had political disagreements with Khomeini because Musa Sadr believed that government and religion should be separated, and for this reason, he was not willing to have a close collaboration with Khomeini at that time. Qaddafi, who was helping both groups, invited them to sit down and resolve their differences. Musa Sadr agreed, and the Iranian revolutionaries also agreed. Musa Sadr, along with two bodyguards, went to Libya, and it was supposed that Beheshti would go to meet him from Iran on behalf of the Iranian revolutionaries. Musa Sadr spent a few days in Libya, and Beheshti did not go. Musa Sadr wanted to leave Libya. However, a phone call from Beheshti to Libya was made, and he spoke with Qaddafi, saying that we have documents that Musa Sadr is in contact with the Shah and is not a trustworthy person and is probably in contact with America, and since we are in a very sensitive stage, this is a few months before the revolution, you should keep him under observation for a while to see what happens. Qaddafi, who saw the revolutionary star of the Iranians shining, listened to the advice and kept Imam Musa Sadr in a house and did not let him leave. These studies show that after three or four months of being there, Musa Sadr's family was desperate and, through Yasser Arafat, managed to reach Qaddafi, asking what happened. Qaddafi then contacts Beheshti and asks him that now that you have returned to Iran, it has been only a few weeks since you came back, and the revolution has succeeded, should I let him go? Beheshti says that his freedom would harm the Iranian revolution because we have just returned to Iran, and if a powerful rival comes into the field, it may cause trouble and the collapse of the victorious Iranian revolution. Whether Beheshti's opinion was his own or one taken in consultation with the Imam is unclear. Beheshti says to remove him from the way, and Imam Musa Sadr is killed, and his body is buried in a desert in Libya, which is not known where. Based on these two investigations recently published in America, I am very interested in asking Mr. Beheshti whether what the investigations have said is correct and whether you were aware of or informed about the disappearance and then death of Musa Sadr? Bread, cheese, and herbs in Shirin Ebadi's style. For tonight's guests, I will serve stone-baked bread with poppy seeds, Liqvan cheese, and fresh herbs because it is the national food of the underprivileged class. Of course, Carter must eat his own cooking! Alright. Now Ms. Ebadi has a dinner party with Khomeini, the Shah, Bakhtiar, Carter, and Ayatollah Beheshti... Surely you want to serve them some food as well. What food do you want to serve them? I will serve tonight's guests bread, cheese, and herbs. Stone-baked bread with poppy seeds, Liqvan cheese, and fresh herbs. My reason for choosing this is that it is a national food and, unlike chelow kebab, which is also a national dish but a food of the affluent class, bread and cheese is the national food of the underprivileged class. Moreover, no nation eats as much fresh herbs as we do when eating. Exactly. The herbs and fruits we eat are unparalleled, especially the herbs. By serving this food to Mr. Khomeini, I want to say that you who said frozen meat should not be eaten, now due to the Iranian revolution, families cannot even eat meat once a month, and this bread and cheese is the result of the revolution. Of course, it should be noted that even cheese is expensive, and some cannot even afford cheese. After all, bread, cheese, and herbs have become a common food, replacing the chelow kebab we used to eat.