The Debate of Ferdowsi and Hafez with Ghazali at M. Azarm's Dinner

Host: Nemat Azarm (M. Azarm) Guests: Ferdowsi, Imam Muhammad Ghazali, Hafez, Nima, and Mossadegh Music: Kiss Me Dinner Menu: Sholeh (a type of soup) This week's host is Nemat Mirzazadeh, known as M. Azarm. Mr. Azarm is one of Iran's famous poets and has been writing poetry for about fifty years. His works often have political, social, and protest themes. His poetry collection titled 'Sohoori' was banned before the revolution but was published in large quantities on the eve of the revolution. He was imprisoned several times during the struggle against the Shah's regime and wrote poems praising Ayatollah Khomeini, but immediately after Khomeini came to power, he published two poetry collections, 'Golkhun' and 'Golkhsham,' criticizing the new Islamic regime and was pursued, ultimately forced to leave Iran. Mr. Azarm is a founding member of the Iranian Writers' Association and, alongside writing poetry, conducts research on Ferdowsi's Shahnameh and Hafez. He lives in Paris, and I have interviewed him at his home. Azarm: Welcome to the program. Please tell us who you have invited for dinner? I have invited Ferdowsi, Imam Muhammad Ghazali, Hafez, Nima, and Mossadegh. Excellent. I will later ask you about your interest in these five figures, and our audience will certainly want to hear from you. But before we delve into your guests, I wanted to see what music you plan to play for them? The song I love is 'Kiss Me.' Let me explain that a person who is not a professional poet created this song, but it has such political and patriotic connotations that stories were made about it later because it was shortly after the 1953 coup. It was said that Colonel Siamak wrote this song about the youth of the Tudeh Party who were executed. But such news was not true. Golnaraki also once sang it, and he was a young man in the market. Why has this song become so popular, and what does it mean to you? You see, there are times when an artist unconsciously touches a national nerve, just as Hafez did in the eighth century. That is why when you touch it, it encompasses the entire social pyramid from top to bottom. I was in my last years of high school, and suddenly we saw that everyone was singing this song. Once, this song was not played on the radio at two in the afternoon. In fact, the radio stopped playing it because it was politically interpreted from the very beginning? Exactly. Something exploded in Iran. In any case, my song is 'Kiss Me.' Now let's move on to the guests you have chosen, and your first guest is Ferdowsi. Guests of Nemat Azarm: Ferdowsi Abu al-Qasim Ferdowsi (329 to 416 AH): Renowned Iranian poet Major work: Shahnameh Reason for invitation: Ferdowsi gives permanence to the Persian language and infuses thought into its vocabulary. The survival of this language until today is due to Ferdowsi because he took this language and infused it with necessary thought. Ferdowsi represents the peak of Iran's cultural revival. What does that mean? The Persian language was nurtured until Rudaki, but there is still a 200-year gap between Rudaki and Ferdowsi. The introduction of the cultural renaissance of Iran was initiated by Roozbeh Dadbeh (Ibn Muqaffa). Now the language has emerged, but... it is necessary for thought to enter it... I previously mentioned that we have geniuses throughout history who unconsciously interpret national and historical orders. Ferdowsi is a man born of a peasant family, and the peasant class has had the primary and fundamental task of preserving national heritage and teaching and recreating it since the Sassanian era. Ferdowsi grows up in such a family. Now, when Ferdowsi matures and passes thirty, the Persian language has gained full capability and can express anything. However, there is a very, very important point that I must mention about Ferdowsi. Language cannot remain and not become obsolete unless fundamental thought is infused into this vessel. Language is merely a form. Linguistics teaches us that we think only within the confines of vocabulary. Language does not fit outside the confines of vocabulary. Therefore, the scope of every human's intellectual world is limited to the geographical boundaries of their vocabulary. Now, what has Ferdowsi done? Ferdowsi has come and placed thought into this vessel of vocabulary: 'I have made the world from speech like paradise / No one has sown the seed of speech more than this.' Note that Ferdowsi comes and gives permanence to this language... Let me put it this way: the survival of this language until today is due to Ferdowsi because he took this language, but what did he do? He infused necessary thought into this language, from where? From the first human, Kiumarth, just as the Quran starts from Adam, he is aware... I said the language was ready, but it needed a thought that would serve as a bridge across the deep and terrifying chasm that separated the Islamic period from the pre-Islamic period for future generations to cross and know what their ancestors said. Ferdowsi accomplished this by composing the Shahnameh... The second guest you have chosen is Imam Muhammad Ghazali. Guests of Nemat Azarm: Imam Muhammad Ghazali Imam Muhammad Ghazali (450 to 505 AH): Iranian philosopher, theologian, and jurist Works: Revival of the Religious Sciences, The Alchemy of Happiness, Advice to Kings, and other works Reason for invitation: I consider Imam Muhammad Ghazali to be a representative of cultural tension and a symbol of psychological turmoil in Iran after the emergence of Islam. That is, something pulls every part of his existence from one side. Ghazali represents a type of thought about Islam as identity. He is also from Tus (like Ferdowsi). He is a man who has received the deepest education in Islamic Iran. One of his major works is 'Revival of the Religious Sciences,' which he himself summarized in Persian as 'The Alchemy of Happiness,' and its prose is very beautiful. However, ideological religious teachings have led him to issue a fatwa in that same book, 'The Alchemy of Happiness,' stating that the joy of Nowruz is inappropriate and says that this Nowruz ceremony should become obsolete. I have his exact words quoted. I must say that I consider Imam Muhammad Ghazali to be a representative of cultural tension and a symbol of psychological turmoil in Iran after the emergence of Islam. That is, something pulls every part of his existence from one side. It is not in vain that at the age of forty, he suddenly abandons teaching and school, goes here and there, retreats, and then comes out of retreat... Ultimately, he dies at the age of fifty-five in his home, meaning after years of closing the door on himself... Now I want to say that Muhammad Ghazali represents a type of thought about Islam as identity. Ferdowsi accepted Islam as the Iranian mind accepts it, and he begins the Shahnameh 'In the name of God, the Lord of life and wisdom'... But what does Imam Muhammad Ghazali say in response to that? Imam Muhammad Ghazali says... He has phrases that when you put them together, you are amazed at how a person can say both this and that... But he is predominantly so Muslim... To simplify it for you... he issues a fatwa... Let us remember that he was the first person in Islamic Iran and in the Islamic world to be given the title 'Hujjat al-Islam.' That is, his words are authoritative. But this same person, who has written such beautiful things in 'The Alchemy of Happiness,' issues a fatwa that Razi, Ibn Sina, and Farabi should be condemned to death because they believe that the world has always existed. Well, if the world 'has always existed,' then what becomes of the Creator? What becomes of God? Ghazali says that they are continuers of the Magian religion. In the places where he rejects Nowruz and Mehrgan, it is based on this foundation. From Tus Khorasan a thousand years ago to today, two currents continue: Islam as a religion, with interpretations that Iranians have made of it, and Islam as an identity. When you say identity, it means... Iran without Iran. Religion is, after all, a universal theory and is in conflict with nationality. People like Ferdowsi say that these two are not in conflict; one can be Iranian and also Muslim. Imam Muhammad Ghazali could not reconcile Iran and Islam, which Ferdowsi did. Imam Muhammad Ghazali ultimately suffocated in this tension and among the contradictions he felt within himself. It is said that in the last four years of his life, he closed the doors on himself and did not even want to see his closest relatives. What does this mean? What conflict exists within him? While the world respects him. Now it is your third guest's turn; Hafez. Guests of Nemat Azarm: Hafez Shams al-Din Muhammad Hafez (727 to 792 AH): Renowned Iranian poet Major work: Divan-e Ghazaliat Reason for invitation: Hafez is the historical memory of Iran. He has effectively built a bridge between his time and Ferdowsi. The word Iran has never appeared in Hafez's poetry, yet all of Hafez's poetry cries out for Iran. He is undoubtedly one of the four great voices of Iranian culture. When I taught Hafez at the university, I named the course 'Hafez, the Historical Memory of Iran.' Hafez has compressed the historical memory of Iran. The Shahnameh is the compressed version of the eighth century. After Ferdowsi, the national memory and memories before Islam gradually become Islamic, and the national memories... weaken, and mysticism comes. However, one of the wonders of Iranian culture is that four hundred years after Ferdowsi, Hafez does the same thing that Ferdowsi did in the fourth century and builds a bridge over the deep chasm of Iran before and after Islam, Hafez has effectively built a bridge from his time to Ferdowsi. The word Iran has never appeared in Hafez's poetry, yet all of Hafez's poetry cries out for Iran. Hafez is indeed the guardian of the Quran, but being the guardian of the Quran does not necessarily determine your philosophical outlook. When he says, 'What is this high, simple ceiling with many designs / No wise man in the world is aware of this riddle,' you see there are no exceptions, 'No wise man... is aware.' Prophets are either wise or ignorant; if they are ignorant, there is no point in talking to them... Hafez is undoubtedly one of the four great voices of Iranian culture: Ferdowsi, Rumi, Saadi, and Hafez. Hafez is the culmination of all this verse: 'I am a lover, a rogue, and a gazer, and I openly say / So you know how adorned I am with many arts.' The word rogue existed before Hafez, but the connotation that Hafez gives to the rogue has remained since his time and cannot be translated into any other language. If one word could explain the history of Iranian culture, that word would be the rogue of Hafez. In fact, let me tell you this: Hafez has an official pen name, which is Hafez, and a main pen name, which is rogue: 'I am not that rogue who abandons the witness and the cup / The keeper knows that I do this less.' What does rogue mean in Hafez's language? Rogue means Hafez. He says: 'In a gathering, I drink wine, and in a gathering of friends, I show off / Look at this cheeky act I do with the people.' This verse is the essence of the entire history of Iran... Rogue means someone who does not submit to any obligation. 'I am a servant of love and free from both worlds' or 'I am not that rogue who abandons the witness and the cup / The keeper knows that I do this less.' Hafez has completely revolutionized the word rogue. Rogue means someone who is pure-hearted, recognizes a person as a human being, and does not divide people into believers and non-believers. Which guardian of the Quran do you know who has such a conflict with representatives of Islam? The entire Persian literature is on one side, and Hafez is on the other side in his conflict with the clergy. Your next guest is Nima. Guests of Nemat Azarm: Nima Yushij Nima Yushij (1276 to 1338 SH): Innovative Iranian poet Works: Nima's Epic, Oh Night, Legend, Manli, Neighbor's Words, and other works Reason for invitation: We have an artistic essence and an artistic literacy. Nima had both his essence and beautifully acquired his literacy. Everything was gathered in him. If it were not for Nima, we would not be here. After Hafez, since that style and manner had ended, all poetry after Hafez is a repetition until we reach the Constitutional Revolution. Let us remember that Nima is the child of the Constitutional Revolution. Nima felt that that era had ended, and this new time needed a new language. So, in your opinion, Nima understood that the old poetry of Iran had ended... It had ended, and then he looked and saw that after Hafez, we had no one else. He was also familiar with Europe... All of these influenced Nima to become Nima. Yes, but anyone who has all of this still does not become Nima. We have an artistic essence and an artistic literacy. Nima had both his essence and beautifully acquired his literacy and went to study at the Alliance School (a French-language school in Tehran). Everything was gathered in him. With artistic literacy, you can become a teacher, but you do not become an artist... and Nima's most important work is paving the way for his students... But nothing diminishes Nima's greatness. If it were not for Nima, we would not be here. Very well. Now we go to your last guest, who is not a literary figure. What is your interest in Mohammad Mossadegh? Guests of Nemat Azarm: Mohammad Mossadegh Mohammad Mossadegh (1261 to 1345 SH): Lawyer, politician, and Prime Minister of Iran Fame: Leadership of the oil nationalization movement Reason for invitation: Mossadegh came to lift Iran from its historical humiliation. He came to restore this national pride.