Host: Nasim Khaksar Guests: Bahram Sadeghi, Gholamhossein Saedi, Franz Kafka, Alexander Kojeve, Alberto Giacometti Music: They Can't Take That Away From Me / Louis Armstrong Dinner Menu: Rice and Lentils This week's host is Nasim Khaksar, one of the most significant writers of the so-called exile literature, depicting the lives of Iranians who were forced to leave the country after the revolution. He began writing in the 1960s alongside political activities. In 1973, he was imprisoned for the second time under the Shah's regime due to his connection with the guerrilla movement and was released early in the revolution along with other political prisoners. After the revolution, he was imprisoned again and eventually left Iran, enduring great hardships to reach the Netherlands. Nasim Khaksar has published about 30 works, including "The Grocer of Kharsavil," "Wind Vanes and Whips," and "Christina," some of which have been translated into Dutch. He currently lives in the Netherlands, and I have spoken with him over the phone.
Nasim Khaksar: Welcome to the program. If possible, please tell us which five characters you would like to invite to your dinner party?
Nasim Khaksar: First, I greet you and the dear listeners of the program wherever they are. Like many of your hosts, this choice was very difficult for me. However, I selected five individuals whose fields are literature, art, and philosophy, with whom I have a close intellectual and emotional affinity. Three of them are writers of novels and stories: Bahram Sadeghi, Gholamhossein Saedi, and Franz Kafka. The other two are a philosopher, Alexander Kojeve, and the last one is a Swiss-Italian designer and sculptor named Alberto Giacometti.
I will later ask you why these characters are significant to you and why you want to invite them to dinner. But before that, tell me what music you would like to play for your guests?
Nasim Khaksar: I thought about this. There are two pieces of music that I have memories of and have always liked. One is a jazz piece sung by Louis Armstrong along with Ella Fitzgerald called "They Can't Take That Away From Me," and the other is "Bolero" by [Maurice] Ravel. But I will choose the jazz music, and I think my guests will enjoy it as well.
Could you explain to me why this piece of music is interesting to you?
Nasim Khaksar: When I came into exile, I listened to two pieces of music. The first was Ravel's music, which I liked so much that one of my friends recorded it several times on a tape. At that time, there were no CDs. When I played the cassette, it would last for an hour or two. Later, I became interested in Louis Armstrong's work. This also had memories for me because his voice and the emotion in it took me back to the south, to Abadan, for the excitement and warmth present in Louis Armstrong's voice and this music.
Now, let's return to your guests. You first mentioned Bahram Sadeghi; why do you want to invite Bahram Sadeghi?
Nasim Khaksar: I feel a connection with Bahram Sadeghi due to his satirical view of social and political issues. Before discussing my choice of Bahram Sadeghi, I must say that the selection of Bahram Sadeghi, Gholamhossein Saedi, and Kafka was made because their works share a common aspect: they mock reality or provide a grotesque image of realism. Whether this reality is tragic or something else does not matter. What matters is that these writers present it with a comic aspect and in a mocking manner. I recently realized this while reading Kafka's novel "The Castle." This mocking aspect is also prominent in Bahram Sadeghi's stories. For example, he has a story called "All Incident" published in the book "The Trench and Empty Canteens."
I first read this story in the 1970s in prison with a few friends. The events of this story, its structure, and the dialogues of its characters never feel old to me. Every time I read any story or event, it comes alive for me again. One of the reasons I turned to Bahram Sadeghi was this.
So, the humorous aspect of his view on social issues is interesting to you...
Nasim Khaksar: Yes. He has a humorous view of social issues and political events that I feel close to. For instance, his story "All Incident" takes place on a winter night. We know that winter or the code of winter in our narrative and poetic literature always refers to events after the coup of August 28. An example is the poem "Winter" by Akhavan. In "All Incident," the story occurs on a snowy night, and a group gathers in a house. However, it is clear that the people who gather are examining the events and incidents following that defeat.
Among his important works are "The Trench and Empty Canteens" and "Malakout." Is that correct?
Nasim Khaksar: He has produced a lot of work. But his short story collections are much more famous. He was also very influential on others.
Now let's talk about your second guest, who, like Bahram Sadeghi, was a physician but worked in playwriting.
Nasim Khaksar: Gholamhossein Saedi (1935-1985): Iranian writer Famous works: "The Mourning of the Bill," "The Stick-Wielders of Varzil," "The Cow," "Othello in Wonderland" Reason for invitation: I chose Saedi for the bitter humor present in his works. He was a bundle of energy.
Saedi's life was the bitter life of an Iranian intellectual and writer. I chose Saedi again because of the bitter humor in his works. The truth is that these days, when we look closely at social realities and the political events happening in the world, we see they are full of material for humor and humorous literature. Saedi was a writer who had a significant impact on our contemporary narrative literature. He experienced both the August 28 coup and the period after it, meaning the Shah's era. During the Shah's time, he was imprisoned and was forced to emigrate. While he was in Iran, he worked and wrote powerfully despite the pressures of censorship and the security police. He was a bundle of energy for work. His works were diverse. He wrote plays, stories, and when he ran out of inspiration, he would travel. He would wander from village to village, city to city, to see people's lives up close. Saedi's life was marked by wandering, imprisonment, and exile. His works reflect both the face of a writer from a generation before him, like Sadegh Hedayat, and the generation after him.
Some of his works have also been turned into films, like "The Cow."
Nasim Khaksar: Yes, "The Cow" is one of his works. Then he had a short story called "Calm in the Presence of Others," which [Nasser] Taghavi made into a film. Then there is the film "The Circle of Mina," which is based on one of Saedi's works, which I think [Dariush] Mehrjui made.
You personally knew Mr. Saedi; what kind of personality did he have?
Nasim Khaksar: There was an energy for work in Saedi, he was full of effort. He was not someone who would sit still. I first saw him in Abadan, then I saw him again in Tehran. With Saeed Soltanpour, we went to his office. At that time, he had just come from one of his interrogations. As soon as we sat down there, he started talking about his works, his acquaintance with people. He even had the flow of his interrogation in his mind, working it into a story. This aspect he showed was an important part of Saedi's character.
Now let's talk about another writer, who is a Czech-German writer, Franz Kafka.
Nasim Khaksar: Franz Kafka (1883-1924): Czech writer in German Works: "The Metamorphosis," "The Trial," "The Castle," "America," and other works Reason for invitation: To understand reality through literature, few forms match the comic form, and Kafka creates a mockery of reality that is unparalleled.
The truth is that I recently read Kafka's "The Castle" for the umpteenth time, and this last time I read it, my reading of this novel was completely different from previous times. From the very beginning of the novel, I felt that I could not help but be astonished by the grotesque images Kafka presents of the people and realities surrounding his main character, who is a surveyor, and not laugh out loud. Kafka creates such a mockery of reality that is unparalleled. The entry of "K" (the character of the story) into a village where the castle is located, his conversation with the innkeeper, and the discovery of his assistants, who are not actually his previous assistants, all create a space in connection with the people that shows that it seems less form can match the comic form for understanding reality through literature.
The truth is that I always find myself asking this question, especially when writing a story: how can this world, this existence, this subject that occupies my mind be defined? Well, literature offers many suggestions in front of you, one of which is the comic form. When I read Kafka's "The Castle" this time with this perspective, I really doubted whether my opinion about this novel and the mockery it creates was real. But as I progressed and connected more of the events together, my doubt was dispelled. Then I searched and came across a text in English that [Milan] Kundera wrote, which also emphasized this point that the humor and comic aspect in Kafka's works is very important and recounted from one of Kafka's friends that it was written somewhere that when Kafka read his stories to his friends, he and others would start laughing out loud. This is very interesting. Or in his story "The Trial," where someone is arrested very early in the morning. The scene that is only tragic for us or sometimes symbolic for other things is a mockery of reality for Kafka himself. But Kafka apparently did not like people to read his works; he even reportedly said that all his works should be burned after his death...
Nasim Khaksar: Yes, I have read these too. But one of the reasons I chose these three was that when I was reading Kafka, I remembered Bahram Sadeghi's work and Saedi's work. Then I realized how suitable and appropriate the comic form is for expressing the realities of our current world...
I think Iranians owe Sadegh Hedayat for introducing Kafka in Iran. He was the first one to translate Kafka. Is that correct?
Nasim Khaksar: Absolutely correct. Hedayat was the first to translate Kafka's stories and provided a very good introduction called "The Message of Kafka," which truly opens a chapter or a book for understanding Kafka for us.
Do you think Kafka and Hedayat shared a common view on pessimism or philosophical despair?
Nasim Khaksar: I am not very interested in labeling Hedayat and Kafka as necessarily pessimistic or optimistic... It is very difficult to label someone as pessimistic or optimistic... Their search and perspectives are what I find interesting.
Now let's move on to your fourth guest, who is a philosopher and philosophical analyst, Alexander Kojeve.
Nasim Khaksar: Alexander Kojeve (1902-1968): French philosopher of Russian descent Fame: Interpretation of Hegel's works and influence on 20th-century French philosophy Reason for invitation: Reading a work by this philosopher sparked my interest in philosophy. "The Master and the Slave"; an interpretation of a section of Hegel's "Phenomenology of Spirit" that gave me a fresh perspective on reading philosophical and literary texts.
The reality is that reading a work by this philosopher sparked my interest in philosophy. It was in 1971 or 1972 that I read his book "The Master and the Slave," which is an interpretation of a section of Hegel's "Phenomenology of Spirit." This book was translated into Persian by Hamid Enayat. Reading this book gave me a fresh perspective on reading philosophical and literary texts. The only book I have read by Alexander Kojeve is this one, and I have not read any other work of his. But as I said, this work made me interested in reading philosophy books, especially those translated from Hegel into Persian. The reality is that I love philosophy. Philosophy takes you to another world. It gives you a new perspective for looking closely at the world. And it helps, even for myself, I say, it helps me gain a better understanding of the texts I read, especially literary texts. I can say that without familiarity with philosophy and reading philosophical works, including Hegel's works, it would have been difficult to have this perspective I now have when reading texts.