Wives of Lajevardi, Goebbels, and Beria at Maziar Bahari's Dinner Party

Host: Maziar Bahari Guests: Zahra Gol Gol, Nina Gegechkori, Magda Goebbels, Masha Gessen, Ms. Barati Music: Like a Rolling Stone by Bob Dylan Dinner Menu: Three or four ordered dishes and probably something in the food to make the guests talk more comfortably. This week's host is Maziar Bahari. Maziar Bahari is a journalist and filmmaker and is the editor of the IranWire website. He was a reporter for Newsweek magazine in Iran for many years and was arrested during the controversial presidential election of 2009. He spent more than a hundred days in solitary confinement and was forced to make a coerced confession under pressure from interrogators. Mr. Bahari was eventually released on bail and went to Britain, where he published his memoirs about his detention in English, which became a bestseller. John Stewart, the famous American television personality, made a film based on this book called 'Rosewater'. Mr. Bahari's lawsuit against the 'Press TV' network for broadcasting his coerced confessions led to the condemnation of this Iranian state network in a London court and limited the network's activities. Maziar Bahari has made many documentaries, including 'The Fall of a Shah' and 'Coerced Confessions', which were broadcast on BBC Persian. He lives in London. Maziar, welcome to the program. Can you tell me who you invited for dinner? Thank you very much, Sadegh, for inviting me. My guests are Ms. Zahra Gol Gol, Ms. Nina Gegechkori, Ms. Magda Goebbels, Ms. Masha Gessen, and Ms. Barati. We have very different guests at your party. You will definitely explain later to our audience who they are, as some of them may not be well-known. But before that, I want to see what music you would like to play at this party? I thought about the music and considered various songs. Then I said that since I invited the guests for your listeners, I would listen to the music for myself. The song I chose is 'Like a Rolling Stone' by Bob Dylan. Do you like this particular song or do you like all of Bob Dylan's work? I have always liked Bob Dylan since I was about seven or eight years old. My older brother listened to Bob Dylan, so I always liked him. Bob Dylan is one of those artists who never gets old, and the more time passes, the more people realize the importance of Bob Dylan. That's why you saw that last year he was awarded the Nobel Prize in Literature. And I think this song by Bob Dylan is very important for this time because it talks about the chaos of the sixties and the fact that no one is secure. I think this song can be said to be a song of our time, a song of our era, in fact. Now let's go to the guests you chose. You mentioned Zahra Gol Gol first. I wanted to explain why I invited these guests. When we spoke a couple of days ago, you told me that I should invite a series of guests. I looked at your previous programs and saw that interesting and unique individuals had been invited by interesting and unique people who had interviewed you. But personally, I like to see people's work. I personally do not like to socialize with famous people. Because every time I have met a famous person whose work I admired, I mean when I saw them up close and had dinner with them, I saw a behavior that later tarnished their work for me. Therefore, if I were to invite Nelson Mandela, Gandhi, or George Orwell - people I admire - I am sure something would happen that would make them fall from my eyes... Therefore, I said that I would not invite people I admire. Maziar Bahari; Bob Dylan Music choice: Like a Rolling Stone Bob Dylan wrote the song 'Like a Rolling Stone' in 1965. Several reputable music publications describe this song as one of the most important and influential works in world music. Famous singers and bands have covered this song. Now that it is like this, what did you do? Then I thought that I would invite a series of people I hate. I thought, for example, to invite Idi Amin, Stalin, Mao, Mr. Khomeini, and see how we could get to the bottom of the matter. But the dictatorial figures whose interviews I have seen, I realized that they are people who really deceive themselves. Or as the English say, Delusional, meaning they have lied to themselves and to others so much that it is impossible to truly understand the reality of these individuals. Therefore, I said all this introduction to say that I would choose the wives of three people who worked for contemporary dictators. To see how these individuals behaved in their personal lives, how they were attracted to these leaders (dictators), whether they were really attracted to these leaders or were lying, and what their personal lives were like and how they were as fathers. I think if we can really understand this issue, we can eliminate many dictatorial behaviors within ourselves and in society. That is why I chose three women who were the wives of the henchmen of tyrants. Now let's talk about the first guest, Zahra Gol Gol. Zahra Gol Gol is the wife of Mr. Asadollah Lajevardi, who, as we know, was the head of Evin Prison and one of the executioners of the 1980s. This Ms. Gol Gol is a very interesting person to me. Because I read an interview with her a while ago. She married Mr. Lajevardi at the age of thirteen, who at that time was twenty-six or seven years old. They had never seen each other before. The first time they met, Mr. Lajevardi only asked her about prayer, and she said yes, and they were married until the time of Mr. Lajevardi's assassination, and they had seven children. I would really like Ms. Gol Gol to talk a little about Mr. Lajevardi at this dinner and say what kind of person Mr. Lajevardi was. This image we had of him, what different image she could present. But a little more informally, not like the interview that the Resalat newspaper had with him. For example, to say why Mr. Lajevardi was so, as some say, romantically in love with Mr. Khomeini. That he would beat and torture prisoners and always repeated the name 'Imam' while doing so, and that he did this work really for 'the satisfaction of the Imam'. I experienced this myself. For example, when I was in prison, my interrogator would constantly hit me on the head with his fist and would always repeat the name of Mr. Khamenei and say, 'Dear Sir, you must accept this from me.' Mr. Lajevardi was also said to be like this. That is, he always beat and tortured in love for Mr. Khomeini. I would really like Ms. Gol Gol to explain a bit about what kind of person he was as a husband and what things he said about their daily work, which was in fact torturing, interrogating, lying, and behaving badly with prisoners. This is interesting to me. Maziar Bahari's guests; Zahra Gol Gol Zahra Gol Gol: Wife of Asadollah Lajevardi Reason for invitation: Asadollah Lajevardi was the head of Evin Prison. I would really like Ms. Gol Gol to talk a little about Mr. Lajevardi at this dinner and say what kind of person Mr. Lajevardi was and what things he said about their daily work, which was in fact torturing, interrogating, lying, and behaving badly with prisoners. Maziar, I am now looking at the interview with the Resalat newspaper that you mentioned. They asked her to talk about the characteristics of martyr Lajevardi, and she answers that my tongue is really inadequate; he had all the excellent qualities. But it would be interesting if they could explain a little more in this informal dinner. That is why I invited five women to talk comfortably together... I might even leave the room so that there is no problem with my presence as a man there, so they can talk very comfortably about everything. Maybe I also mischievously put something in the food to make them even more comfortable to talk! Your second guest is Nina Gegechkori, which seems like a Georgian name. Nina Gegechkori is actually the wife of Beria... the head of the secret police during Stalin. Right? Yes, one of Stalin's close aides, Lavrentiy Beria, who was also (like Stalin) Georgian, and Ms. Gegechkori lived with Beria for many years and married him at the age of fifteen or sixteen, which was a low age among communists at that time. As you know, Beria was one of the most feared senior officials of the Soviet Union. Even Soviet officials hated him, and a year or two after Stalin's death, he was executed. He was accused of a ridiculous charge that he was a spy for England and was executed. Beria had another characteristic that later became clear. He was sexually deviant. Maziar Bahari's guests; Nina Gegechkori Nina Gegechkori (1905 or 1910-1990): Wife of Lavrentiy Beria, head of the secret police during Stalin. Reason for invitation: Beria was one of the most feared senior officials of the Soviet Union, even Soviet officials hated him. Ms. Gegechkori was Beria's wife, and I would really like to talk to her. He was a very perverted person. Beria's house in Moscow is now the Embassy of Tunisia. About twenty years ago, when they were renovating the Tunisian embassy, a series of bones were found underground, and it was said that these were the bones of girls and boys that Beria took to his house, raped, and then killed. This is something we have heard in other governments as well. Even in Iran, there has been talk of Falahian and Saeed Emami. These sexual deviations have existed in all dictatorships. Beria, in any case, was one of the most hated symbols of the Soviet regime, and Ms. Gegechkori was Beria's wife, whom I would really like to talk to. Gegechkori, as far as you know, did she later say anything about her husband and what kind of person he was? I read a series of interviews from Nina Gegechkori, and she, like Ms. Lajevardi, praised him until the end of her life. One interesting thing that Ms. Gegechkori says about Beria is that he was always working, and she does not know where the women who say he raped them were because Beria was always working from the morning he left home until late at night when he returned home. This lady may not have known that Beria was doing other things. Therefore, she remained loyal to Beria until the end of her life... Maziar Bahari's guests; Magda Goebbels Magda Goebbels (1901-1945): Wife of Joseph Goebbels Fame: One of the most influential women in Hitler's circle, a senior member of the Nazi Party Reason for invitation: Joseph Goebbels was the Minister of Propaganda of Hitler's regime. Magda Goebbels was one of the very active women of the Nazi Party and was indeed considered one of the leaders of the Nazi regime. Magda Goebbels had seven children. Those who have seen the film 'The Fall' know that Magda and Joseph Goebbels gave cyanide to their seven children and in the same bunker where Hitler and his girlfriend Eva Braun committed suicide, they also killed themselves. Magda is somewhat different from these other two women. Neither Nina Gegechkori nor Ms. Gol Gol held any position in the Soviet government or the Islamic Republic. But Magda Goebbels was one of the very active women of the Nazi Party and was indeed considered one of the leaders of the Nazi regime. To the extent that everyone either called her the First Lady of Germany or the wife of Goering, who was the Minister of Defense of the Nazi regime. Maziar Bahari's guests; Masha Gessen Masha Gessen (January 13, 1967): American-Russian writer and journalist Works and activities: Writer for several reputable publications, such as The New York Times, The Washington Post, author of interesting books about Russia and Putin Reason for invitation: I can say that she is one of the best journalists in the world. A Russian-born journalist who grew up in America, she returned to Russia after the fall of the Soviet Union and has written a variety of articles for reputable newspapers and magazines and has interesting books.